Life without the VIN rule

Agreed 100%. If they did not intend for you to re-skin the roof, then why have skin in there at all?

A panel could have complex shapes to it and flanges or locking mechanisms, etc. A skin is just a thin piece of sheet metal generally. They have different meanings. Look at the CRX sunroof for example. There is a panel that is bolted to the track assembly that could be bolted in place covering the factory opening. I have seen this done on a few cars. Or...you can make a skin to cover the hole from the outside.

Is this the next great argument in IT? :)

As mentioned before, people will probably be cool with it...but is that what we want to get started (continue)?
 
Y'all are convincing me (as an individual) that the ITAC might reasonably revisit the wording of the sunroof rule in the context of this new reality.
If you do this, I encourage you to NOT make re-skinning the roof illegal, thus making many cars suddenly illegal under the "new paradigm".

Oh, and "good luck" with that one.

GA, who's really become a big fan of "the protest process" lately, versus a small group of smarty-pants rulesmakers actually thinking they can out-wit the group intelligence of the masses... :shrug:
 
To remind everyone, the purpose of the removal of the VIN rule was to allow IDENTICAL chassis more options.

An non-roof car is not identical to a roof-car.

Kirk - welcome to the post VIN-Rule world. You asked for it, you got it.

Andy - If you read the rules that allow you to re-skin the roof than what is the difference between the two chassis?
 
Now I feel better because I been wrong at least once during 2009.:OLA:

But I'm sure you all got my point, ya just don't talk about site friends being illegal.
 
Where's that rolling-on-the-floor-laughing icon...? :)

Oh, this one's gonna be fun, fun, fun.

That is what I mean. We fought this one for a while because of potential uninteded issues. Here they come........

Most won't be satisfied until the rule is clarified...potentially creating more issues.
 
That is what I mean. We fought this one for a while because of potential uninteded issues. Here they come........

Most won't be satisfied until the rule is clarified...potentially creating more issues.

Even if you want to call this "an issue", the greater good of getting more cars out there certainly out weighs a couple of sticking points. With that said, it will still be a very good rule.

If NOTHING else, it will give the ITC racers an option to make the move out of ITC and into ITB or ITA.
 
Now I feel better because I been wrong at least once during 2009.:OLA:

But I'm sure you all got my point, ya just don't talk about site friends being illegal.

Well, one of those guys is on my "Facebook" friends list, and I had dinner with him in Atlanta...sometimes paper get written to find out what side of the rule the courts decide. Reasonable men may differ, and we've got plenty of reasonable men here....
 
What are the car manufacture part names for these items you folks are throwing around? If the car manufacture don't call the piece over your head a skin you calling the piece over your head a skin don't mean squat.

Near example I have is for a car door.

One may procure a "Shell Assy, Door" bare & procure a "Panel, Door Repair" which some of you might call a skin to attach over the shell assy, door. Point being the car manufacture don't call the outer panel a skin.:o If I had a manufacture catalog with roof parts I would check & see if the car manufacture calls the piece over your head a skin.
 
Here is what I have from people already:

Is the skin just the thin sheet that is the externally appearing 'roof' or is it the whole top section that is the bracing and infrastrcuture?

Just askin'.
 
Well there is no definition in the glossary of panel but I interpret the roof panel to be a panel so
I see no reason why a car with a non sunroof roof panel would not be legal.
1 start with new non sunroof tub.
2 remove roof and replace with sunroof roof legal for the class.
3 remove sunroof roof and replace with non sunroof roof panel as allowed by rules.
Make sure all workmanship is of factory quality. We’re good. :happy204:
 
We fought this one for a while because of potential uninteded issues. Here they come...
Andy, what are these unintended issues you're so worried about? How does this rule allow someone to cheat where they couldn't before?

What - specific - "unintended" actions can you foresee under this new rule? Everything "unintended" I've seen offered in this topic is plainly and clearly cheating, and is easily seen and protested. Same as before. The difference? No VIN plates to transfer to the new chassis. But, the result is exactly the same.

Most won't be satisfied until the rule is clarified...potentially creating more issues.
While I disagree with the "most won't be satisfied" part, I'll certainly agree that a "clarification" will result in, simply, different ways to cheat and/or bend the rules.

And I'm interested in hearing your interpretation of the intent of the words "panel or replacement skin". I'm inferring that you believe re-roofing the car was never intended nor allowed prior to 1/1/09; I'm sure you'll be shocked to learn I disagree. ;)

The very moment someone "gets away" with cheating that would have been stopped with the rules of 12/31/08 then you can tell me "I told you so". But I don't see it happening, and until then this is a big mountain out of a little molehill - GA
 
We have separate issues here:

1- any spec line competing must be exactly as delivered from the factory, except as the rules allow.

2- Does the sunroof rule allow complete roof replacement?

The VIN rule is fine....even if #2 isn't as liberal as some might think, many subscribers will still be benefited.

The sunroof equipped roof might have extra bracing/stampings/gutters, and flanges that prepare the roof for the inclusion of a sunroof that are absent on a non sunroof version. These typically have weight. Interesting how some argue that it's inconsequential, when many chassis are prized donors for their "slicktop". In any case, the actual amount of the weight isn't important.

What is important is to determine the true meaning of the rule.

I've always thought that you could:

  • Remove the sunroof panel, and go race.
  • Bolt the stock panel in place. (I did this with my RX-7...2 screws and some star washers and I was done)
  • Make a "plug" that fits into the existing opening permanently,
  • Add thin panel (same thickness as roof material) and bond it to the perimeter of the opening, covering the opening.

I do not see the allowance of the replacement of the complete roof structure, unless an lesser optioned car shares the same spec line.
 
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Greg,

Unintended doesn't have to result in cheating. The shrinkage of ITC, this clarification on roof panels are just the start. I didn't think of them when we voted and I am sure we will uncover some more.
 
Well there is no definition in the glossary of panel but I interpret the roof panel to be a panel so
I see no reason why a car with a non sunroof roof panel would not be legal.
1 start with new non sunroof tub.
2 remove roof and replace with sunroof roof legal for the class.
3 remove sunroof roof and replace with non sunroof roof panel as allowed by rules.
Make sure all workmanship is of factory quality. We’re good. :happy204:

Again, I'm just not sure that the first part of step 3 is, as you put it, "allowed by the rules." It says you can replace the "sunroof", not the "sunroof roof."

I'll agree that the wording leaves room for interpretation though.
 
Jake - The non-sunroof cars (Integras) are desired because you can then turn a regular old Integra into a Type R looking car. It has NOTHING to do with the weight and everything to do with ricers wanting to look cool. Put a Type R wing on an RS chassis and you have a Type R "looking" car. No other Integra ever came without a sunroof. The RS chassis is also VERY rare so the combination of items is what makes them desirable.

That's it... Nothing more/nothing less.

In the case of the RS chassis, the large benefit for me is that it already came without ABS so I do not have to do what I did on the prior chassis. That includes removing the brake lines to the ABS pump, wiring, putting in a new prop valve, etc...

Also being a non-sunroof car is a bonus as it looks better and is one less thing that I have to "plug up".
 
Unintended doesn't have to result in cheating. The shrinkage of ITC, this clarification on roof panels are just the start. I didn't think of them when we voted and I am sure we will uncover some more.
Eek, man. Both of those were on the forefront of *my* brain when I was writing my support for it. I expected that this would drag cars out of ITC into ITB, and that there would be arguments over the sunroof (though they're the exact same arguments as before 1/1/09; nothing's changed in that regard).

But, as I noted many, many, many times in the past, that VIN rule stopped nothing. I, for example, fully intended, had I wrecked the NX, to find a hardtop NX1600 and convert it to a 2000, and transfer over all the VIN plates and stampings. And, prior to rescind of the VIN rule, I had always planned to use a hard-top Integra to replace the wrecked GS-R (though I agree the action of actually having to follow-through on it was never "unintended" ;) ).

All this VIN rule did was save me the trouble of transferring over the plates.

We have separate issues here:
1- any spec line competing must be exactly as delivered from the factory, except as the rules allow.
I agree. To be legal it's got to be exactly as factory-delivered, except...

2- Does the sunroof rule allow complete roof replacement?
Of course it does; always has. If you disagree, then you need to resolve exactly why the words "replacement skin" were used, versus simply stating "...sunroofs may be replaced with panel...of the same material as the original surrounding roof material."

"Replacement skin" clearly refers solely to the outer skin of the roof, or the roof panel, if you will. Always has been interpreted that way, from the get-go. - GA
 
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