2010 Pro IT Post Season Comments

dtanthon

dtanthon

New member
With the 2010 Pro IT season over what went well, didn't go well, needs improving for 2011, left alone, etc.....

You can also contact me or Terry directly through this forum or through the www.ProITSeries.com site.

Remember, we do this for the love of the sport. This is our series.
 
Overall 2010 was a great season. Good schedule - nicely spaced events. I would have liked to visit the Lightning track once instead of Thunderbolt three times. I missed the raffle prizes & the cute podium girl.

I would vote against adding Summit Point to the schedule. Too far to travel & none of the locals seemed interested in our series.

The overall points is meaningless unless it is adjusted otherwise a Miata will win every year. Maybe have Pro-IT and Pro-SM with some type of adjustments based on class entries for IT

Keep up the good work and see you in 2011.
 
I enjoyed the 4 rounds that I attended (Lime Rock, Thunderbolt during national, Thunderbolt during arca)

I really do think that combining the race with national races seems to be the best format, when possible. Some nationals (doubles) don't need the support from the regional Pro-IT, but others definitely benefit from it. It's a win for the club when car counts go up and entry fees go down, and it's great for the Pro-IT series to find room inside the national schedule on one day. The two day ARCA weekend sure was a lot of track time, which was awesome, but I don't like feeling detached from the rest of the SCCA. I also agree with the sentiment that three races at thunderbolt may have been a bit much, but I am sure that was a product of opportunistic scheduling, taking what was available, and keeping costs down.

I agree that the "overall winner" points scheme seems to be a bit flawed, but it's a pretty tall task to have that make sense.

As for points within each class, I think that there should be a larger points gap between 1st and 2nd, 2nd and 3rd, 3rd and 4th, and then maybe evening out to a flat amount between places for the rest of the positions.

I had no qualms with the way cash prizes were handled, but I was in SM which got the majority share of the cash prize. I imagine if I was in another class I might feel like I got shortchanged in that I contributed the same amount to the prize fund, but got less out of it. The only way I can see fixing this would be having a flat base prize for each winner or podium position, and then having a percentage based bonus added on top of that base amount depending on how many cars are in the class, with cars placing below the podium getting only percentage based cash prize. The problem with this of course is that the ITB or ITC (not to single out those classes, but they have the lower entry total) winner will get a disproportionate amount of prize if only 1 or 2 cars enter. I'm not sure which way I lean on this issue, perhaps some others can weigh in.

I sometimes question the 45 minute race time, perhaps if it was possible maybe have two 20 minute sprint races? On one hand I think 45 minutes is great because it's a real challenge to run your car consistently for 45 straight minutes, and it discourages dumb moves in the early laps...but at times I feel like the race gets a bit dragged out. I think two 20 minute sprint races would be more exciting, but I also think it might lead to more dumb moves and passes since the race is so short. Also, I imagine scheduling two 20 minute races might be a problem, but I really have no insight in that regard.

Overall, I really enjoyed the Pro-IT series. Considering how many different cars are out there on the track, in my experience, I feel that for the most part people were very courteous in allowing faster cars to pass and giving each other plenty of racing room. Perhaps others experienced something different, but that was my perspective on the races from the front of the SM pack. The Lime Rock race was a bit of a mess, but that's more the track than the series.
 
2010 Season

To paraphrase Rob the 2010 Sucked for us:blink: Since Driver now lives in MD and car is here Sayre it creates some additional hurdles. NH is 10hrs from Here and close to 18 hrs from Bill's home, Does not like Limerock, Watkins Glen No question 45 minutes from Home base. NJ fine but like the possible split between Lighting and Thunderbolt. Like the track time although ours season amounted to aprox 30 laps and and 40 minutes for all the races we entered:shrug: Points are tough and I'm staying out of that debate( don't throw stones unless you can catch them) Sorry summit did not work out as that is 5hrs for car and 3 hrs for driver. Actually we did a test day at summit ran ALL day 90 degree humid never skipped a beat went to WGI Saturday overheated ran lean etc etc.:dead_horse:. Beaver Run probably too far for New England crew. I compliment the people that are working so hard on this series Thank You. T Weaver
 
After racing almost all races in the prior seasons and not racing one race this season I am not sure I can offer suggestions... I did follow the series a bit though so here is my "outside" opinion.

I think/hope that you learned from the Summit Point issues, that will take a while IMO to recover from... I know that if I was planning to go to a Pro-IT in the future I still would not make the travel unless I saw 20+ cars entered.

I still feel strongly that you should have two series with a split start, and 2 overall winners. One series should be PRO-IT and the other should be PRO-SM. It would be more enjoyable for the ITB/ITC guys (probably SM also) and it would be far better for the spectators watching. I don't know anyone who doesn't like the excitement of a split start!

I am not sure if I am in support of the series concentration being on double dipping entries. IMO the series seems to concentrate on getting multiple entries at NJMP events to help the NJ regions. I just don't think that so much pressure can be put on the drivers to double dip. People such as myself can't afford it, and I am not going to lie, that presure was one of many that lead me to running NARRC races instead. I felt like some people were pushing that the PRO-IT should be your second entry, not your primary entry. I sorta would like to see PRO-IT as the next level of IT, not just an extra race for those that have some left over play money each weekend.

I think that the PRO-IT/PRO-SM series would fit nicely across the entire NESCCA division running once at each track in conjunction with the National series. I think this would be a great first step in growing the series nationally and maybe a few years down the road having a National PRO-IT/PRO-SM Championship at the ARRC or IT FEST... Probably just a dream :)

The positives that make this series the best overall series in the Northeast... Great race lengths, huge fields with multiple classes, every car/driver has someone to race with. Any quick lap will show you that the series is great for the drivers and for the spectators!

Raymond "The other thing that went really well in PRO-IT was that S2000 at Watkins Glen until the rain came in ;) - Awsome race to watch!" Blethen
 
Along with what Ray said.... I'd like to see PRO-IT run as a support race to more big races. We should be racing at the both Grand-AM weekends at LimeRock and The Glen. I think Pro-IT fits in with Grand-Am better than 7 Spec Racers.....
 
I agree with the others that the PRO-IT series should not be part of any regional weekend. Expecting anyone to double dip is far from reality for most people at our level for all sorts of reasons and not just entry fees. I also Think the race weekend prize fund should be eliminated and it should only be year end money. The regions hosting the events are getting the short end of the stick and I personally think the regions deserve and need that revenue. The Pro-it can still be a Pro-it series with the great publicity and when done with pro races. I was partially guilted by all sorts of feedback by PRO-IT officials, my region, even discusions on forums here and elsewhere because I could only afford to run the one series and not double dip... in fact I didn't even run a race in my own region last year!

I also believe that they missed a huge opportunity to fill the fields by not doing split starts with a Pro-it and pro-sm. Limerock is the only "sellout" that has happened in all three years. If they promoted pro-sm it could be huge and ignoring this large group is, well you know... not fiscally responsible. To be honest this was the icing on the cake for me as I was frustrated with battling for the championship in ITB while having lots of SM cars also racing for position in the mix. I will most likely never participate in a ITB with the current format ever again.

Lastly I think the season ends way to early. 1 race a month ending in October would be great. I would actually even try to get in on the NARRC runoffs. I wouldn't change anything about the NARRC runnoffs all I would do is ad a Pro-it fee to the entry fee to those that want the PRO-IT points and have the race be within the regularly scheduled races. It would be a fun twist and bring out the best to the biggest race in the northeast. A great finish to the season. The double at NJMP leaves me with a melo, early end to the season... felt kinda like its only 1/2 time and not the grand finale.


Stephen
 
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Well if we're dreaming Stephen, how about a NatPIT/PSM at Summit or... VIR. :) Located a bit more central for the east coasters. I allso agree, the series should be held in conjunction with the national and other pro events. Essentialy creating a more formal premier series.
Regarding a split start. I need to thank Stephen for spearheading the split start for the regional at the Glen. The first few laps were the best possible conditions the could occure for B cars. Tight group of fast cars fighting in our class. Heaven ..Atleast untill I broke. LOL I agree racing is racing and some people are happy to race with anybody, but, even if there is only one or two cars in my class I want to race with those guys. I believe a split start will benifit the SM as well as the IT C,B and A guys. The fast S and R guys are long gone at that point, so not really a factor for them. This might draw in more C,B and A cars as well. As we all know the B and C car numbers have been really bad for some of the races. :( IMHO
Ken
 
The reality is that Pro IT was sold by the promoters to the sanctioning regions as a additional race for some cars on a given weekend. In other words the economics were based on most people double dipping.
First a few facts:
Double dippers cost the regions less than stand alone entries. If the same car and driver combination runs in more than one race on a weekend the region pays only one insurance fee.
From the regions point of view Pro It has a discounted entry as half is retained by the series for the purse.
The 45 minute races use more expensive track time that a typical regional.

So if few Pro IT guys double dip the financial model for Pro IT does not work the same and there is less reason for any region to invite them to a weekend. In order to be an asset to an event they would have to bring more cars or use less track time or have pay a higher fee if the region has any other choice for an extra race group if needed. If the series does not pay its own way regions will have little desire to subsidize it.
 
Dick is correct in his entire post! The regions retain half of the Pro-it entry fee. And TRUST ME ON THIS it can be a hard sell to the "old Timers on comp Boards" and before you bitch about the comp board jump on board and serve. Double dipping helps sell the Pro-it to the region. I really don't recall anyone beating up on us to double dip! fortunately most did. I suspect the "rental" car folks like the opportunity to keep the cars out and running. If split starts seem to work that is fine. I think the BMWS ought to have 800 lbs added to weight but I don't think they would like that:D. Again Thanks to those who work on putting the series together. Tom Weaver
 
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I remain skeptical about PRO-IT as currently structured.

While it is a good formula, and a fun time, my comments about its parasitic
nature are still true, and the parasite is continuing to strengthen
at the expense of the host...

In the July Watkins Glen races, 9 of the 21 Drivers registered in
ITR and ITS the Pro-IT race were not registered for the regional ...

This is just not consistent with the economics of the relationship
between the regionals and the Pro-IT series. I don't blame the drivers, they
are playing the game within the rules...I think the rules need fixing

It is my understanding that because the Pro-IT entrants are "extra" the
regions justify only taking half of the normal entry fee, leaving the
other half for the Pro-IT prize pool, which is certainly the case when a
Pro-IT is married with a National race, or with another Pro race.

However, I suggest that when a Pro-IT race is run with a Regional race,
the region should only agree to take half when in fact the driver
is also registered for the regional race (ie truly an extra)...if not
they should insist on taking the full fee. In the July WGI case that
would make my suggested fee structure:

$300 for regional
$450 for Pro-IT ($300 to region, $150 to prize fund)
$600 for both ($450 to region, $150 to prize fund)



Where now the current fee structure is:

$300 for regional
$300 for Pro-IT ($150 to region, $150 to prize fund)
$600 for both ($450 to region, $150 to prize fund)



Essentially, the people ONLY running the Pro-IT series are racing
for HALF PRICE, since the prize money comes back to them...
and if they only do the Pro-IT series all year, their entry budget is
reduced by half...50%....4/8....4 slices. Wow!

The way it is currently structured, the regions are not only supporting
the Pro-IT series by doing all the work, they are subsidizing the effort,
and as a result we have almost half of the ITR and ITS drivers ONLY running
the Pro-IT series, leading to reduced car counts in the regionals.

Kudos to those drivers for recognizing the bargain...
Shame on us for creating the bargain while simultaneously reducing
car counts, regional income, and racing fun

Glenn

.
 
In the July Watkins Glen races, 9 of the 21 Drivers registered in
ITR and ITS the Pro-IT race were not registered for the regional. Glenn that means 12 of the drivers did the regional.
 
.

yes....sorry if my wording was cryptic....

12 double dipped and so the region received $300 + $150 from each of them

9 ONLY ran the Pro, and so the region received ONLY $150 from each of them

my point is that I believe the region should get full price for the first entry,
and half price for the double dip....and for almost half of the Pro-It entrants
in ITS and ITR, they only paid HALF price for their initial entry

in the case of running with another Pro series, or with a National
race, it is absolutely true that all of the Pro-It entrants are "extra" and
it make sense to give them a discount

in the case of running with a Regional race, the Pro-It entrants are only
"extra" if they ALSO run the Regional....and so they should only get the
discount if they ALSO run the Regional

If the price remains structured the way it is now, you incentivize the IT
drivers to ONLY run the Pro-IT series, and we end up where we are today
with reduced car counts in the Regionals

.
 
RSTPerformance said:
...I felt like some people were pushing that the PRO-IT should be your second entry, not your primary entry. I sorta would like to see PRO-IT as the next level of IT, not just an extra race for those that have some left over play money each weekend....Blethen
Click to expand...


The reason you felt that is that it is TRUE.

The economic model of Pro-IT as it stands was DESIGNED that way...and
for it to succeed without the "parasite consuming the host" then every Pro-IT
entrant MUST double dip in the Regional!

If your vision is for Pro-It to be something different, you must develop a different
business model, with completely different economics...

.
 
StephenB said:
...I was partially guilted by all sorts of feedback by PRO-IT officials, my region, even discusions on forums here and elsewhere because I could only afford to run the one series and not double dip...Stephen
Click to expand...


If anything I have said has contributed to your guilt, that was not my
intention....The way the prices were set encouraged entrants to
ONLY run the Pro-It and NOT double dip.

Kudos to those drivers for recognizing the bargain...Shame on us for creating
the bargain while simultaneously reducing car counts, regional income, and racing fun....

The current pricing is not consistent with the design of the economic model...
and the regions that are allowing it are getting screwed in the short term, and
damaging regional racing in the long term

The pricing needs to change to encourage double dipping to make
it consistent with the economic model that was designed by the Pro-It
developers, and sold to the regions.....I repeat my concept:


suggested fee structure:

$300 for regional
$450 for Pro-IT ($300 to region, $150 to prize fund)
$600 for both ($450 to region, $150 to prize fund)



current fee structure:

$300 for regional
$300 for Pro-IT ($150 to region, $150 to prize fund)
$600 for both ($450 to region, $150 to prize fund)



Glenn

.
 
lawtonglenn said:
If anything I have said has contributed to your guilt, that was not my
intention....The way the prices were set encouraged entrants to
ONLY run the Pro-It and NOT double dip.

Kudos to those drivers for recognizing the bargain...Shame on us for creating
the bargain while simultaneously reducing car counts, regional income, and racing fun....

The current pricing is not consistent with the design of the economic model...
and the regions that are allowing it are getting screwed in the short term, and
damaging regional racing in the long term

The pricing needs to change to encourage double dipping to makue
it consistent with the economic model that was designed by the Pro-It
developers, and sold to the regions.....I repeat my concept:


suggested fee structure:

$300 for regional
$450 for Pro-IT ($300 to region, $150 to prize fund)
$600 for both ($450 to region, $150 to prize fund)



current fee structure:

$300 for regional
$300 for Pro-IT ($150 to region, $150 to prize fund)
$600 for both ($450 to region, $150 to prize fund)



Glenn

.
Click to expand...


Glenn, I agree 100% with you. My guilt comes from me believing and understanding your point of view while being that parasite. Thanks for communicating this clearly with numbers.

Pro-it folks don't get me wrong... I LOVE the series and support it gets. And honestly I would still run the same amount of events without ANY prize money. I don t care about the purse at all and would rather the region was supported. I liked the schedule (1 race per month), the website and promotional stuff, and the weekend format ( with the split start change and promotion of sm i think it would be perfect!)

Stephen
 
Stephen I agree with your feelings 100% and Glenn I agree with your economics 100%.

In NER I believe that the Nationals are the races that need more entRies. Folowing Glenns comments I think the PRO-IT should not run with regionals unless it is required that only double dip entries can go into the purse and only drivers double dipping are eligable for the per race purse. The only other issue I see is that a majority of the PRO-IT races benefit NJ regions, however they are the region supporting/running the series and they shouldBe the ones maximize the benefits.

Just a thought...

Raymond
 
Although I don't have a horse in this race (but maybe next year!).......


Does anyone else remember the Import Challenge races? We ran on Memorial Day with the big boys. Full fields and the crowd loved it because they were usually the best races of the weekend. That was a great model although it was for only one weekend. I'm sure it's difficult getting on the schedule of a pro weekend though....... But THAT would be cool!!
 
Thanks for the comments and observations.
Keep them coming and look for an email survey soon (early September).
 
Thanks for the comments.

Also, all checks were mailed for all the rounds and year end as of today. Please cash them, there is a 90 day expiration on them (it is painful to kill a check).

Look for an email survey soon in your email box.
 
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