A Poll Regarding the IT Rules Set

[Ron Earp]

I'm curious to see how many of the IT Forum members would like to change the IT rules set to drop some of the rather pointless rules requiring washer bottles, heater cores, and other "street car" items that seem to be vestiges from the dual purpose beginnings of IT.

When you vote on the poll I'd like for you to assume that it will be possible to simply remove these requirements from the rules set with no negative "unintended consequences". I am aware that there are those that feel we can't possibly remove these items from the IT rules set without destroying IT but to those folks I say "bullshit". It is my poll so vote with my boundary condition in mind .

For the purposes of the poll assume we're talking about the following "dual purpose vestiges": washer bottle, heater core and HVAC system, wipers/wiper motors, headlights, and wiper bottle reservoir.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ron,

We all know the 'washer bottle' is the lightning rod for this topic. The issue in my mind is where you stop. I think if you are testing the waters for a letter, you would have to do that. Your idea of 'what doesn't belong in a racecar' will vary from mine, Jeff's, Jake's, Kirk's and on and on.

Take into account ANYONE who is anti-creep will throw a flag. The anti-creep crowd looks for a reason WHY to change a rule, not just a 'why not?'. Keep that in mind. Also think about what the resultant cars 'look' like on the outside. If IT and Prod cars start to 'look' the same, it adds to outsider confusion - which is an issue for some people.

Some questions for people who are about to answer the poll:

- You satisfied with the 7 items that Ron has listed or do you want to add more?
- We have letters telling us that dashboards, windshields (replace with lexan), all lights, or 'anything that doesn't add performance to the car' should all be removed because they don't constitute a 'racecar'.

I consider myself a hybrid ITAC guy. I try to be a forward thinker for future growth but I have to ask: is there a contingent of drivers who aren't building IT cars because they can't remove their washer bottles? I ask you - what compelling arguement is there to actually DO THIS?

 

[JeffYoung]

And I will continue to say that "because membership wants it" should be a good enough reason why for us on the ITAC, so long as it doesn't violate an IT core value (and yes I know that can vary from person to person but I think it does so less than most suspect): no moving suspension points, stock body panels, stock motor with limited mods, DOT tires, stock transmissions, etc.

 

[JeffYoung]

One other point, sorry for the double post.

I would answer this question YES. Not just because of the specific "you must keep the washer bottle" rule, but by the concept in play here that you have to keep "silly things" on an race car under the IT ruleset. Yes, I think that does drive some folks away from IT, in concept.

. I try to be a forward thinker for future growth but I have to ask: is there a contingent of drivers who aren't building IT cars because they can't remove their washer bottles?

 

[Ron Earp]

Andy,

Just take the poll for face value. I'm just interested to know if others wish to remove these items from their cars. Right now I'm not interested in "anti-creep", whys, ifs, and so on. I might be interested in those things in my next post....or letter. I do think Jeff is barking up the right tree though.

Actually it might be interesting if the ITAC doesn't participate in the poll.

Ron

 

[ddewhurst]

***washer bottle, heater core and HVAC system, wipers/wiper motors, headlights, and wiper bottle reservoir.***

***dashboards, windshields (replace with lexan), all lights, or 'anything that doesn't add performance to the car' should all be removed because they don't constitute a 'racecar'.***

Bill Miller, your list please.

& the list continues untill we have a _______________ (fill in the blank) class that already exists.

Dude, if it isn't broke why are you trying to fix it.

 

[JeffYoung]

I think "No ITAC" (for a while...lol) in this thread is a good idea. Let's see what this slice of membership says and go from there.

 

[Spinnetti]

I'm curious to see how many of the IT Forum members would like to change the IT rules set to drop some of the rather pointless rules requiring washer bottles, heater cores, and other "street car" items that seem to be vestiges from the dual purpose beginnings of IT.

When you vote on the poll I'd like for you to assume that it will be possible to simply remove these requirements from the rules set with no negative "unintended consequences". I am aware that there are those that feel we can't possibly remove these items from the IT rules set without destroying IT but to those folks I say "bullshit". It is my poll so vote with my boundary condition in mind .

For the purposes of the poll assume we're talking about the following "dual purpose vestiges": washer bottle, heater core and HVAC system, wipers/wiper motors, headlights, and wiper bottle reservoir.

I couldn't agree more strongly! WHY should IT be penalized to run this crap. These are RACE cars! The days of driving your sports car to work, then the track were OVER years ago for anybody serious, not like it makes sense to driver car on the street with a full cage in it anyway. The key point I think some are missing is that removing stock junk you don't need DOESN'T COST ANYTHING. Everybody can do it!. Its not like the creep that I think was foolish which costs ALOT such as coilovers and ECU's for instance. For the anti-rules creep folks, why did you let those go? Although its just my preference, I like IT cars to look like street cars, at least from the outside. I wouldn't want to change any of that, but I say be allowed to remove those things mentioned, plus the dash. The rest of the car is empty now anyway thanks to previous rules creep - finish the job!

 

[Spinnetti]

And I will continue to say that "because membership wants it" should be a good enough reason why for us on the ITAC, so long as it doesn't violate an IT core value (and yes I know that can vary from person to person but I think it does so less than most suspect): no moving suspension points, stock body panels, stock motor with limited mods, DOT tires, stock transmissions, etc.

I second this too, IF it doesn't cost more money.. I like the idea of removing stuff though! From inception, I see IT as the means by which SCCA (which was (is?) a rich boys club) to let the "poor" people in, and has been hobbled all along. I think the core rules of very limited engine, suspension and chassis mods are really about perfect as is (except for the ECU and coilover creep), but why the concern about the rest? Why shouldn't our cars be a bit faster and better handling at no cost?

 

[RSI]

from my own story.

I have a car that I am having a hard time making weight legally.

Here is where we currently sit.
Take the car COMPLETELY apart to bare shell, bead blast to remove ALL sound deadening, then reinstall and still we would need to purchase aluminum shocks, and step up to all the LIGHTEST parts.

LIGHTEST means $$$$ I'm already 8k into this ITS build..which is fine, but for me to get to weight I need to spend another 4k on the lightest parts.

That's where we currently sit.
Or we could remove horns, hvac, all bottles, etc. Window regulators...which BTW I never understood why we HAVE to run glass.

Sure weight is an issue and the cost of going to plexi...but the idea of getting hit with lots of crackling glass is a little frightening.

Based on what has been discussed in the V2.0 process thread, someone stated that the point of IT was the have purpose built race cars, but from cars you would buy on the showroom floor. It was also said by an ITAC member that these cars are SUPPOSED to be trailers to each event.

So why all the dual purpose stuff?

Always seems confusing as to why I need horns on a race track and why when we are trying to keep $$$ down we get into having to spend $$$$ on lightweight parts but cannot remove more STOCK items.

Sorry if the above comes of frustrated...I just have a regular competitor in ITB that is making the jump to H-Production because he didnt read the rules and now he has to ADD all those items back into his car....so now he's out recruiting people to stop running in IT and run in Production...

I just kinda frustrated that my class of 8-9 ITB cars is now in the 3-4 whereas h-production is now 7-8.

 

[Bill Miller]

***washer bottle, heater core and HVAC system, wipers/wiper motors, headlights, and wiper bottle reservoir.***

***dashboards, windshields (replace with lexan), all lights, or 'anything that doesn't add performance to the car' should all be removed because they don't constitute a 'racecar'.***

Bill Miller, your list please.

& the list continues untill we have a _______________ (fill in the blank) class that already exists.

Dude, if it isn't broke why are you trying to fix it.

Sorry David, I'm pleading the 5th on this one.

 

[Knestis]

I think "No ITAC" (for a while...lol) in this thread is a good idea. Let's see what this slice of membership says and go from there.

Fine with me. I'm about a day from officially not giving a damn anymore. Again. This, because I am all but positive that the category is on the brink of having WAY bigger issues than washer bottles.

Have at it, y'all.

K

 

[tom91ita]

...........Or we could remove horns, hvac, all bottles, etc. Window regulators...which BTW I never understood why we HAVE to run glass.

...................

Always seems confusing as to why I need horns on a race track and why when we are trying to keep $$$ down we get into having to spend $$$$ on lightweight parts but cannot remove more STOCK items.................

why can't you remove your window regulators? what glass are you referring to that we have to run? windshield and rear windows?

sorry, but i don't know what car you are building.

and on the subject of horns, since we have to have them, is it socially acceptable to use it during the race when overtaking?

 

[RSI]

Tom,
As for window regulators, the rule stating that if it doesnt say you can then you cant....I cannot remove window regulators or mechanisms or rear door glass etc.

At least that's based on the last 6-7 readings of the GCR.
Jonathan

 

[seckerich]

Be careful what you wish for, you will get it. Washer bottle, heater core no big deal. Most are just an empty piece of copper anyway. Start going past that and removing lights and you do get to production or ST. Now my Mazda needs that one piece hood to replace the lights. Now you need a $600 lexan windshield with the mandated inside supports for another $100 and it is so scratched you can no longer see. Let alone put wipers on for rain. A small vocal few would F**k up a football given enough posts. Some of you are too stupid to realize what you have and where you would take IT. Guess that is a no vote . Sorry, I suck at politically correct tonight.

 

[Ron Earp]

Some of you are too stupid to realize what you have .

Ouch. At least I know where I stand now.

Windshields and glass rules weren't an option for removal in this particular poll, at least as I defined it in the beginning.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

The point Ron is that you are drawing a new line in the sand. That line won't be far enough for someone after your line is the 'new' line. You can say 'just stop at my line'. Well maybe that is what should be done for your line.

Still waiting to hear a 'why'.

[playing devil's advocate]

 

[seckerich]

Ouch. At least I know where I stand now.

Windshields and glass rules weren't an option for removal in this particular poll, at least as I defined it in the beginning.

You are missing the point Ron. You are relatively new to this and have not witnessed the destruction of classes with well intentioned changes. A class evolves slowly with little changes that are "for the good" of the class. Then somehow another group wants more and the changes go into overdrive. Example:

Open ECU
Going National
Another new process when most are unsure of process V1
Then just a few posts up we get no dash,lights,windows, etc.


Get the picture, everone likes IT then procedes to F it up with too much change and it is no longer IT. You guys just started ITR which was a big deal in a "no new classes" SCCA, and now you want to just drive what was built off a cliff.

The washer bottle is more symbolic than substance in that it has always been that line in the sand. You have known me long enough to know that was not personal towards you, but more of a general statement.

PS. Missed you wusses in the rain today at Barber.:026:

 

[dickita15]

I still have not voted on this one as it has been running around in my head now for a couple of days. As someone who races an older car and a car that does not easily make weight the idea of throwing away some parts like headlight motors sounds good but the reason we have to keep them is not because the rule book say so it is because of a basic principal of IT. If it does not say you can then you cannot.
If your thought is to have a rule that says you can remove parts that are not required in order to build and race your car then this puts that principal in jeopardy.
This leaves you with the only option of itemizing what part are superfluous and I agree that we will not agree where to draw the line.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

I should post this in every forum: There is NO NEW PROCESS. When Krik refers to V.2, he just means us re-writing what was already there in a much more concrete fashion making every effort to insert definitions and eliminate subjectivity. Other than the FWD adder going from a fixed number to a percentage, there are no major changes.