Hi again. Ok, so here is one that those of you who are experienced in IT will know the answer to. Im looking at the rule book and trying to understand what exactly "stock" means. Say, for example, that a production run of a car has a couple of different cam configurations listed using the manufacturer's "stock" part number system. If these parts were not in the car as manufactured, but were available in the car at time of purchase (probably through dealer installation), are they legal to use? If the part number designates it as "stock" for that year and model, does that make a difference? Also, how are these things checked at the tech inspection? Do they use your factory shop manual? Help! Im confused!
Another wierd question
- Thread starter Jiveslug
- Start date
lateapex911
Super Moderator
"Stock" is, in my opinion, to be taken as "as produced by the factory". Dealer installed items don't fly. (Except in certain showroom stock cases but thats another story...)
So, if your car came frome the factory with cam A or cam B, and all else is equal, then you have a choice. If it came from the factory with 2 different cams, but each cam ONLY came with a certain head, for example, then you are married to that head, as that would be considered part of an assembly.
The assembly qualifier is the sticky part of this rule, and I am sure it is often abused, and often unknowingly.
It is unlikely that sucj a weird configuration would end up on the same spec line but it could happen!
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
So, if your car came frome the factory with cam A or cam B, and all else is equal, then you have a choice. If it came from the factory with 2 different cams, but each cam ONLY came with a certain head, for example, then you are married to that head, as that would be considered part of an assembly.
The assembly qualifier is the sticky part of this rule, and I am sure it is often abused, and often unknowingly.
It is unlikely that sucj a weird configuration would end up on the same spec line but it could happen!
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
Ron Earp
Administrator
I have a situation like that too, with many important items on the Jensen Healey, mainly cams and carbs. But, I had to adopt a conservative attitude and treat stock strictly as what was on the car when delivered and ignore the other stuff - I think that is what is meant and seems to be the way most interpret that meaning.
I would be willing to wager that I've got more wiggle room than most due to the nature of the British car industry circa 1960s and 1970s, when whatever part used was whatever Simon had laying around that particular day and bolted it on the car. Plus, the shop manuals are horrid and list multiple parts for serial number ranges of engines, which is all rubbish because most engines in JH's were replaced due to the big Lotus/JH foul up with the oiling issues when produced.
Best to be safe, especially if you are beginning racing.
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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS
Email: "rlearp at gt40s.com"
I would be willing to wager that I've got more wiggle room than most due to the nature of the British car industry circa 1960s and 1970s, when whatever part used was whatever Simon had laying around that particular day and bolted it on the car. Plus, the shop manuals are horrid and list multiple parts for serial number ranges of engines, which is all rubbish because most engines in JH's were replaced due to the big Lotus/JH foul up with the oiling issues when produced.
Best to be safe, especially if you are beginning racing.
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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS
Email: "rlearp at gt40s.com"
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Ron, I was thinking about you and your car when I answered that question. We were talking about you at the track this weekend.... it was cool meeting some IT dot com-ers at the Glen.
We want to see the thing go! Looks great BTW. We think you and Jeff should do an "Old Brits Tour of the Eastern Seaboard!", and show us all how it used to be... and will be again, LOL.
Or go to the ARRCS so we can see you there!
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
We want to see the thing go! Looks great BTW. We think you and Jeff should do an "Old Brits Tour of the Eastern Seaboard!", and show us all how it used to be... and will be again, LOL.
Or go to the ARRCS so we can see you there!
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
Ron Earp
Administrator
Hey Andy,
I wish I could have come down to RA for a race, but I couldn't make it, and the Glen would have been really nice. A couple of my buddies from up here went to RA and enjoyed it a lot and really enjoyed the professionalism of the track and staff. We'll make the Glen one day too, too famous not to go.
Jeff and I are on the stick with the Brit cars and are aim is to show folks how it'll be in 2006! ;-) If we can get these two cars sorted they each have a good chance with a good driver to win some races, despite their age and hertiage.
I'm hoping to start actually meeting some folks at CMP in August. It has/is a long road to biulding your own car, especially if you pick something that isn't well known, but it is rewarding.
Jiveslug, if your parts didn't come on a car from the factory then you probably can't use them as most people would interpret that. If the manual says that two cams were used, as delivered, then I think you'd be okay as long as it was the same year, body, etc. of car. Now, I must ask, it sounds like you are reading a British shop manual? About the only ones I know with such much ambiguity!
"Cam 435672 was typically used in the early Jensen Healeys, unless of course your engine serial number ends in an odd number. In these cases cam 242953 was used unless it was Tuesday or Thursday, then cam 289760 was used until Simon was replaced on the engine assembly line. At that point his replacement, Malcolm, decided to use cam 435672 in all engines, except the ones in which these cams caused piston to valve interference problems."
And so on. Exaggeration? Yes of course, but it is true that I've got multiple cams, timings, carbs, etc. used in the manual and I'm sure some other cars do as well
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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS
Email: "rlearp at gt40s.com"
I wish I could have come down to RA for a race, but I couldn't make it, and the Glen would have been really nice. A couple of my buddies from up here went to RA and enjoyed it a lot and really enjoyed the professionalism of the track and staff. We'll make the Glen one day too, too famous not to go.
Jeff and I are on the stick with the Brit cars and are aim is to show folks how it'll be in 2006! ;-) If we can get these two cars sorted they each have a good chance with a good driver to win some races, despite their age and hertiage.
I'm hoping to start actually meeting some folks at CMP in August. It has/is a long road to biulding your own car, especially if you pick something that isn't well known, but it is rewarding.
Jiveslug, if your parts didn't come on a car from the factory then you probably can't use them as most people would interpret that. If the manual says that two cams were used, as delivered, then I think you'd be okay as long as it was the same year, body, etc. of car. Now, I must ask, it sounds like you are reading a British shop manual? About the only ones I know with such much ambiguity!
"Cam 435672 was typically used in the early Jensen Healeys, unless of course your engine serial number ends in an odd number. In these cases cam 242953 was used unless it was Tuesday or Thursday, then cam 289760 was used until Simon was replaced on the engine assembly line. At that point his replacement, Malcolm, decided to use cam 435672 in all engines, except the ones in which these cams caused piston to valve interference problems."
And so on. Exaggeration? Yes of course, but it is true that I've got multiple cams, timings, carbs, etc. used in the manual and I'm sure some other cars do as well
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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS
Email: "rlearp at gt40s.com"
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Bring all your toys to the monster weekend at the Glen Oct 14-16th. School to learn the track, Enduro to get some track time, and Regional to chase Nick's track record...2:14.2...
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Hey Ron, nice ride. I saw the Jensen in the model specific forum. Very cool. Anyway, Im in the process of getting a factory manual to see what it says. How this rule applies will make a big difference as to what kind of power I will make (if I go with this car, have another Im looking at). How are these things enforced at tech?
Ron Earp
Administrator
Jiveslug, there are a couple of different manuals out there, but use the one from Delta, it is more US specific and doesn't have so many loopholes.
These things are enforced by self policing and protesting. So, if you are protested by other racers there could be a teardown, at which point you'll need a shop manual and info to back everything up. If you don't have proof you'll be found illegal at which point lots of things can happen. But, the largest in my mind is you'll be labeled a cheater and that label will never go away. Err on the conservative side.
The big things are on the JH is that you should be using the C cams and Strombergs, anything else is easily detectable and is, in my opinion, illegal. There are lots of other JH things that are easily supportable such as the cold ram air, valve timing (lots to choose from here!), etc. that I think are legal because cars came with it. But, to my knowledge all cars for US market were delivered with the C cams despite what you can find in dealer prep literature and manuals and Strombergs are no question - they must be used despite the Deloretos everywhere else.
You are right it makes a BIG difference on power. I *hope* to get 160-170 from the motor, but if I could use the optional cams 200-215hp would be a non-issue as the little motors are pretty good. Jeff's TR8 could be easily around 250hp+ with a good cam, but, it is out of the question for both motors. Lots of ifs, but they are illegla ifs.
Look at it another way. Buy a new Ford Mustang and you can have hundreds of parts from Ford Motorsport such as heads, cams, superchargers, stroker kits, etc. and all can be dealer intalled before the car is titled so it can be delivered to you wilth all the goodies. But, do you think this stuff is legal is Showroom Stock? Nope. It isn't legal in IT either.
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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS
Email: "rlearp at gt40s.com"
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited July 26, 2005).]
These things are enforced by self policing and protesting. So, if you are protested by other racers there could be a teardown, at which point you'll need a shop manual and info to back everything up. If you don't have proof you'll be found illegal at which point lots of things can happen. But, the largest in my mind is you'll be labeled a cheater and that label will never go away. Err on the conservative side.
The big things are on the JH is that you should be using the C cams and Strombergs, anything else is easily detectable and is, in my opinion, illegal. There are lots of other JH things that are easily supportable such as the cold ram air, valve timing (lots to choose from here!), etc. that I think are legal because cars came with it. But, to my knowledge all cars for US market were delivered with the C cams despite what you can find in dealer prep literature and manuals and Strombergs are no question - they must be used despite the Deloretos everywhere else.
You are right it makes a BIG difference on power. I *hope* to get 160-170 from the motor, but if I could use the optional cams 200-215hp would be a non-issue as the little motors are pretty good. Jeff's TR8 could be easily around 250hp+ with a good cam, but, it is out of the question for both motors. Lots of ifs, but they are illegla ifs.
Look at it another way. Buy a new Ford Mustang and you can have hundreds of parts from Ford Motorsport such as heads, cams, superchargers, stroker kits, etc. and all can be dealer intalled before the car is titled so it can be delivered to you wilth all the goodies. But, do you think this stuff is legal is Showroom Stock? Nope. It isn't legal in IT either.
------------------
Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS
Email: "rlearp at gt40s.com"
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited July 26, 2005).]
Yeah, thats kind of what I thought. The problem Im having that is with the "stock" cam, we are looking at around 120-130 hp in ITB trim. I think that is too little for a 2300lb. car. With the alternate cam, 140 is probably possible. I wont blow anyone away with that kind of output, but Ill be in the ballpark. Im not looking to cheat, believe me. Im just looking for options. I guess I would interperate the rules to mean that if the cam is listed in the factory manual as having been delivered on this car in the US, then it should be legal. Otherwise, Im not gonna go there. Sound about right to you?
Bill Miller
New member
Not for nothing, but 140hp/2300# sounds more like ITA territory than ITB territory.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
Bill Miller
New member
Originally posted by theenico:
Some #'s for reference
ITB:
My old 83 Scirocco was 90hp at 2270lbs
Albins 85 GTI was 105hp at 2280lbs.
Yep, those would be the stock hp numbers for the 1.8 solid lifter and hydraulic lifter GTI motors, respectively.
Low to mid 120's have been reported by a well known VW engine builder, for the hydraulic lifter motor. Figure ~10 hp less for the solid lifter motor (1.5pts less compression, poorer intake track configuration).
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608