Fastfred92
New member
Andy B. needs some BMW comp in ITA, anyone know if any e36 318's are being built?
Any e36 318's being built for ITA???
- Thread starter Fastfred92
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Fastfred92
New member
I may be dumb but I think the cars have a chance in ITA at 2600 lbs...... Love to know if anybody is building one.
Rob, any source for a good header for these cars ??
Rob, any source for a good header for these cars ??
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Fred,
I have been peripherally trying to help Rob with his development (searching for suppliers, etc) and it seems we have come up real short on go-fast stuff for these 1.9's.
I think they could be good too but they may have to be all one-offs like Greg's NX effort.
AB
I have been peripherally trying to help Rob with his development (searching for suppliers, etc) and it seems we have come up real short on go-fast stuff for these 1.9's.
I think they could be good too but they may have to be all one-offs like Greg's NX effort.
AB
Fastfred92
New member
See Andy, everyone has it out for the BMW guys 
even vendors......... It is a shame that M42 / M44 engine stuff is so rare, I think they raced these motors in europe a few years back but all my internet search comes up with nothing........... except some cool neon carbon chrome dress up stuff! This seems like a uphill battle and I like it.
even vendors......... It is a shame that M42 / M44 engine stuff is so rare, I think they raced these motors in europe a few years back but all my internet search comes up with nothing........... except some cool neon carbon chrome dress up stuff! This seems like a uphill battle and I like it.We have a e30 318 that is was raced twice last year with decent results from a 130k mile motor...
In terms of go-fast goodies a lot of stuff from the m50s and euro s50s swaps in however it is all illegal stuff... (i.e. solid lifters valve train goodies pistons rods, and cranks from diesel 320s yeild a 2.1 displacement i believe)
BMW did race these in e36 320 touring cars in the early 90s after the s14 m3 engine was no longer. They were getting around 320hp or something to that tune but everything was obviously bmw backed...
Go fast goodies I think will come in the form of one off pieces as well as proper FI tuning... I know of cars with simple readily available bolt ons putting down well above BMWs listed hp rating...
for the serp belt cars, underdrive pulleys are available, for the vbelt cars a custom set must be made... Cam timing is adjustable and can produce some power with intake adjustments...
other than that getting the chassis right and suspension components to the extent of IT rules is where your time should be spent.
In terms of go-fast goodies a lot of stuff from the m50s and euro s50s swaps in however it is all illegal stuff... (i.e. solid lifters valve train goodies pistons rods, and cranks from diesel 320s yeild a 2.1 displacement i believe)
BMW did race these in e36 320 touring cars in the early 90s after the s14 m3 engine was no longer. They were getting around 320hp or something to that tune but everything was obviously bmw backed...
Go fast goodies I think will come in the form of one off pieces as well as proper FI tuning... I know of cars with simple readily available bolt ons putting down well above BMWs listed hp rating...
for the serp belt cars, underdrive pulleys are available, for the vbelt cars a custom set must be made... Cam timing is adjustable and can produce some power with intake adjustments...
other than that getting the chassis right and suspension components to the extent of IT rules is where your time should be spent.
On another note, not sure about the e36 variant, but the e30s had a very nice stainless header from the factory, not a cast type manifold. Thats one option I suppose if you guys dont have that header piece on the e36 chassis... Its actually sized appropriatly as well from my math...
Supposedly the other big problem is the harmonic balancer, but im thinking its more internet wives tale type of stuff as opposed to truth. Its a rubber unit and is one of the major problems when revving past 7200... Conforti has SUPPOSEDLY had these come apart when doing chip tuning, but too many variables like was it an old weather checked unit to begin with etc...
The hydraulic valve train is a bit of another problem past 7200rpm... however a lot of your off the shelf chips (the JC and the EAT) chip limit revs at 7200.
Tearing one down thinking your going to find all kinds of things BMW missed is another problem... these are built extremmely well, all ports are matched, everything is already extremmely close in terms of balancing, and on my mentioned 130k street driven car the bearings were just breaking into the factory tolerance! rings were also at factory spec and the damn cylinder walls still had the factory cross hatching
A few names I can drop are GT-tecknic and Rebello, GT-tecknic was building a full tilt GT2-3??? entry with the m42 powerplant, however as said full tilt with custom FI and/or carbs, custom custom custom was the key on that motor... Ive emailed them a few times but they have never gotten back to me...
There is also another place in Holland that has built the S42 variant which is the race m42 with a 2.0 liter capacity... They sell a lot of custom pieces that they build however I priced one of their harmonic balancers and a standard version was something to the tune of 800 bucks, (not including shipping from holland) and a lightweight version was in the 13-1400 range... So while they probabaly know what they're doing they're going to be spendy parts... (and as already mentioned mostly IT ILLEGAL)
Supposedly the other big problem is the harmonic balancer, but im thinking its more internet wives tale type of stuff as opposed to truth. Its a rubber unit and is one of the major problems when revving past 7200... Conforti has SUPPOSEDLY had these come apart when doing chip tuning, but too many variables like was it an old weather checked unit to begin with etc...
The hydraulic valve train is a bit of another problem past 7200rpm... however a lot of your off the shelf chips (the JC and the EAT) chip limit revs at 7200.
Tearing one down thinking your going to find all kinds of things BMW missed is another problem... these are built extremmely well, all ports are matched, everything is already extremmely close in terms of balancing, and on my mentioned 130k street driven car the bearings were just breaking into the factory tolerance! rings were also at factory spec and the damn cylinder walls still had the factory cross hatching
A few names I can drop are GT-tecknic and Rebello, GT-tecknic was building a full tilt GT2-3??? entry with the m42 powerplant, however as said full tilt with custom FI and/or carbs, custom custom custom was the key on that motor... Ive emailed them a few times but they have never gotten back to me...
There is also another place in Holland that has built the S42 variant which is the race m42 with a 2.0 liter capacity... They sell a lot of custom pieces that they build however I priced one of their harmonic balancers and a standard version was something to the tune of 800 bucks, (not including shipping from holland) and a lightweight version was in the 13-1400 range... So while they probabaly know what they're doing they're going to be spendy parts... (and as already mentioned mostly IT ILLEGAL)
Fastfred92
New member
Snowman
Any websites / links to the folks in Holland ?
Any websites / links to the folks in Holland ?
As I reread this thread I realized I hadn't posted any of my experiences with my most recent development process.
Fred, the stock Z3/318 header is pretty darn good. We have been working with a fabricator/dyno shop and have done a protoype header. We covered every base....even did some math!!! Results...initially a loss of about 10hp!!!
Amazing!! Fact of the matter is the BMW engineers did a pretty darn good job on these little motors.
We've since done some changing and reconfiguring. Results....no hp gains yet. We have brought the hp back to where it was with the stock header but cannot find anymore. The motor seems to like back pressure. It doesn't respond at all to breathing better. Unfortunately the header effort has been a confirmation of suspicion mission and not a hp gainer. It's at the coater as we speak....we'll see. We're hoping that the adaptive memory of the ECU will show some gains once the car has some hard runs on it.
We'll be dynoing it again after NHIS in April. I'll keep you posted.
R
Fred, the stock Z3/318 header is pretty darn good. We have been working with a fabricator/dyno shop and have done a protoype header. We covered every base....even did some math!!! Results...initially a loss of about 10hp!!!
Amazing!! Fact of the matter is the BMW engineers did a pretty darn good job on these little motors.
We've since done some changing and reconfiguring. Results....no hp gains yet. We have brought the hp back to where it was with the stock header but cannot find anymore. The motor seems to like back pressure. It doesn't respond at all to breathing better. Unfortunately the header effort has been a confirmation of suspicion mission and not a hp gainer. It's at the coater as we speak....we'll see. We're hoping that the adaptive memory of the ECU will show some gains once the car has some hard runs on it.
We'll be dynoing it again after NHIS in April. I'll keep you posted.
R
Fastfred92
New member
Rob, Thanks keep us posted.... I kinda suspected the OEM stuff was good off the shelf but wonder if the Z3 or e30 header was any better than the e36 part. Also looking for advice on chip burning. Anybody with and experience with the Supersprint header ?
Fred, The supersprint is IIRC $1200. Go custom not much more money and there "may be" some tq gains (not sure how much if any) plus the supersprint is not coated. The ECU thing....ahhh...it's a flash ECU. What that means is the software is injected not chipped. What we need is either MOTEC or a code cracker to rewrite the software based on dyno mapping. If you disable the EWS (BMW antitheft) then you could have a couple of ECU's available for different ambient conditions. The EWS prevents the car from starting if the ECU and the key do not match. I have spare ECU's but I can't use them at this time. I've heard the EWS is easy to disable and I've also heard it is hard, so I haven't ventured there yet.
Some one had suggested converting it to OBD 1 , which I don't know if it is IT legal or not, but it would make some things easier I suspect. BMW does some interesting things with the electrical sytem so I don't know what the expectations/limitations of the swap would be. (for instance the on board computer for gas milage, trip distance, etc. is a hub for the wheel speed TCS so you can't just rip it out without going into limp mode). We spent half of last season in limp mode without knowing why. How fun is shifting at 5200 rpm?
The car has nice even hp and tq curves which is real nice. I think it may be still a little heavy given its increase potential. The car has one-off written all over it. If you like an oddball you'll LOVE this car.
R
Also, the e36 318 is the same car as the Z3 . The 318ti is identical just different body panels. If it mattters.
Some one had suggested converting it to OBD 1 , which I don't know if it is IT legal or not, but it would make some things easier I suspect. BMW does some interesting things with the electrical sytem so I don't know what the expectations/limitations of the swap would be. (for instance the on board computer for gas milage, trip distance, etc. is a hub for the wheel speed TCS so you can't just rip it out without going into limp mode). We spent half of last season in limp mode without knowing why. How fun is shifting at 5200 rpm?
The car has nice even hp and tq curves which is real nice. I think it may be still a little heavy given its increase potential. The car has one-off written all over it. If you like an oddball you'll LOVE this car.
R
Also, the e36 318 is the same car as the Z3 . The 318ti is identical just different body panels. If it mattters.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
As a test, how about the OEM header, extrude honed and then an ID and OD coating?
That would an interesting comparision during a dyno day.
That would an interesting comparision during a dyno day.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Explain the extrude honing process and if possible where to get it done, please. I'm up for the test Andy. I'll provide the header and dyno time. You provide the extrude honing and coating.
Also, what are advantages to internal coating?
R [/b]
It's basically 'abrasive flow machining'.
Look here for more info:
http://www.gethoned.com/news/headers.php
The purpose of coating is two-fold as I know it. 1. to reduce underhood temps and 2. to keep the exhaust gasses as hot as possible while they exit through the exhaust. This 'scavenging' is reduced as gasses cool. So an ID and an OD coating provide maximum heat retention of the gasses while providing the lowest underhood temps.
AB
Fastfred92
New member
I am leaning towards a 94-95 e36 318i / is, reason being it is less electronic crap ( EWS, trac control etc. ), OBD I and convert from OBD II to I would be illegal with a Z3, the 318ti has a crappy rear suspension setup and slightly less favorable f/r weight. I think the 318is would be ideal, it has decent aero, cheap body panels, the 325's brakes and suspension, and is well supported with aftermarket goodies (chassis wise), and if a map can be created for the FI it would be a little less hassle with OBD I which should still be a early motronic chip. Andy's suggestion of OEM header extrude honed and coated sounds interesting but my guess is more to be gained by simple cat delete and free flow pipe to a simple race muffler to keep a touch of back pressure. I wil post at BF to see if anybody has any experience with supersprint on a M42 / 44 and will keep IT.com posted.
whoa, I wouldnt go as far to say a 318ti is the same w/ different body panels, the ti's are essentially e30s with 5 lug... They have the same rear trailing arm components which are nothing like those of the e36 models... yea you OBD deuce guys are screwed but as far as OBDI cars EAT and conforti are the only chip sources I would use personally, EAT however is a little more, not sure quite how to say it, but 'homebrewed' technology if you will, but he gets his stuff right on the money... And will burn custom chips
Im not so sure that the extrude honing process would be beneficial on a tubular header piece?
Or are there cast units on the e36 318 models? IIRC my 94 318is has a tubular style header though but havent really paid much attention as its just a street car
Im not so sure that the extrude honing process would be beneficial on a tubular header piece?
Or are there cast units on the e36 318 models? IIRC my 94 318is has a tubular style header though but havent really paid much attention as its just a street car
I guess I can save some money on custom exhaust work, then
As for ECU programming, Dinan does have some downloadable software for the M44, but you have to got to a Dinan authorized shop to get it installed. I'm thinking about it, but mostly to give me a few hundred extra RPM before the rev limiter kicks in. With the gears I've got (3.64:1), I think that will help me avoid a couple of shifts (or at least move them to more convenient places). Besides, I think showing up to my local BMW dealer (and Dinan authorized shop) with a race car could be fun!
-noam (finally, it's almost getting warm enough to get into the garage and actually work on the car)