BF Goodrich Southeast Super Tour Double National STU-STL-Bspec #'s
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$$ on Irish Mike in the TecMark World Challenge car for the win in STU.
Curious to see if the Turbo Z4 can get the computer figured out well enough to work past the weight/restrictor penalty in STU
Looks like mike Flynn in the ex-tecMark E46 BMW WC-TC car picked up 5-6 seconds over last year from 2:29 down to 2:23.
At the same time, John DeBarros in the Ex-Tindol MazdaSpeed6 WC-TC car lost appx 3 seconds from 2:27.1 to this years 2:31.8 (Sunday times looked to be abt 2 secs slower than Sat times this year - comparos for Flynn and Pawley are using Sat time - DeBarros did not appear to go out Sat hence the difference)
Ron Pawley in the old Lexus IS300 WC-TC car (Tim Pappas' old car that then went to canada for a few years) has been consistent the last 3 years in a row turning 2:31.ish laps.
DeBarros being slower can be explained by the weight and restriction he got whacked with at the runoffs because he's in a WC-TC car running under VTS (intake).
Does anyone know if Flynn's Irish Mike's (ex-Tekmark) E46 BMW WC-TC car is running under VTS or STU rules?
Same for Pawley's (ex-Pappas) Lexus IS300 WC-TC car - anyone know if it's running under VTS or STU rules?
I know Weinberger ran at runoffs in the ex-STaSIS Audi WC-TC car under STU rules, then post win his car was adjusted to run at what I believe was the old WC-TC weight.
My point here is that from what I understand - some WC-TC cars are adjusted (higher of VTS or STU) and some are not.
How will this be balanced out in the future? The risk I see here is that ex-WC-TC cars can just be rented and show up, and then be "adjusted" after they win - but not all WC-TC cars are adjusted? Messy, I know.
There is nothing stopping people from building a non-WC-TC car to STU rules just like a WC-TC car, but what about *actual* WC-TC cars that meet STU rules, but have literally hundreds of thousands of dollars into their build development and refinement?
At the same time, John DeBarros in the Ex-Tindol MazdaSpeed6 WC-TC car lost appx 3 seconds from 2:27.1 to this years 2:31.8 (Sunday times looked to be abt 2 secs slower than Sat times this year - comparos for Flynn and Pawley are using Sat time - DeBarros did not appear to go out Sat hence the difference)
Ron Pawley in the old Lexus IS300 WC-TC car (Tim Pappas' old car that then went to canada for a few years) has been consistent the last 3 years in a row turning 2:31.ish laps.
DeBarros being slower can be explained by the weight and restriction he got whacked with at the runoffs because he's in a WC-TC car running under VTS (intake).
Does anyone know if Flynn's Irish Mike's (ex-Tekmark) E46 BMW WC-TC car is running under VTS or STU rules?
Same for Pawley's (ex-Pappas) Lexus IS300 WC-TC car - anyone know if it's running under VTS or STU rules?
I know Weinberger ran at runoffs in the ex-STaSIS Audi WC-TC car under STU rules, then post win his car was adjusted to run at what I believe was the old WC-TC weight.
My point here is that from what I understand - some WC-TC cars are adjusted (higher of VTS or STU) and some are not.
How will this be balanced out in the future? The risk I see here is that ex-WC-TC cars can just be rented and show up, and then be "adjusted" after they win - but not all WC-TC cars are adjusted? Messy, I know.
There is nothing stopping people from building a non-WC-TC car to STU rules just like a WC-TC car, but what about *actual* WC-TC cars that meet STU rules, but have literally hundreds of thousands of dollars into their build development and refinement?
Eric, I'm a bit confused on what you're asking, but...
- No car can run on a World Challenge VTS without being explicitly classified in Table B (p483, Jan 2012 GCR). If they're not listed, then they must comply with all STU specs.
- Irish Mike is running to STU specs. There's no allowance in Table B for a BMW.
- Weinberger's A4, an ex-World Challenge car, was run to STU specs in 2011 but was allowed via Table A an alternate IHI turbo, the one it ran in World Challenge. For 2012 it's still running as an "allowance" under STU regs Table A, but it's weighted as if it were a World Challenge car. So it's still allowed the IHI VF30 turbo allowances, but it has to run the 37mm restrictor and must weigh 3050#, all while meeting all other STU specs.
- Pawley's Lexus is to STU specs; we do not have an allowance for a WC Lexus. There's a table allowance for the IS300 for a 2.8L engine at 3080#. I don't recall the specific details, but I think he was given a de-stroked engine for that thing in WC and I'm guessing that's what he's running (that's what's in the Table A spec). I don't know the details, but a 2009 VTS for that car shows 12.5:1 compression, and the car had to weigh 3067 in WCTC at the end of 2009...
- I don't know the DeBarros car. It could be WCTC VTS, it could be to Weinberger's specs, it could be to the table that allows the 1.8L engine to run the K04 turbo with no penalty. It could be running the stock K03 turbo. Did anyone check TIRs and weight?
GA
- No car can run on a World Challenge VTS without being explicitly classified in Table B (p483, Jan 2012 GCR). If they're not listed, then they must comply with all STU specs.
- Irish Mike is running to STU specs. There's no allowance in Table B for a BMW.
- Weinberger's A4, an ex-World Challenge car, was run to STU specs in 2011 but was allowed via Table A an alternate IHI turbo, the one it ran in World Challenge. For 2012 it's still running as an "allowance" under STU regs Table A, but it's weighted as if it were a World Challenge car. So it's still allowed the IHI VF30 turbo allowances, but it has to run the 37mm restrictor and must weigh 3050#, all while meeting all other STU specs.
- Pawley's Lexus is to STU specs; we do not have an allowance for a WC Lexus. There's a table allowance for the IS300 for a 2.8L engine at 3080#. I don't recall the specific details, but I think he was given a de-stroked engine for that thing in WC and I'm guessing that's what he's running (that's what's in the Table A spec). I don't know the details, but a 2009 VTS for that car shows 12.5:1 compression, and the car had to weigh 3067 in WCTC at the end of 2009...
- I don't know the DeBarros car. It could be WCTC VTS, it could be to Weinberger's specs, it could be to the table that allows the 1.8L engine to run the K04 turbo with no penalty. It could be running the stock K03 turbo. Did anyone check TIRs and weight?
GA
DeBarros' car is the same yellow one from the Runoffs - 2.3L I4 NA motor, tubular fabricated suspension custom WC intake. They got whacked with weight and restrictor (VTS reasons) at the Runoffs.
I know my point? wasn;t exactly clear.... I think what I'm trying to say is that it makes no sense for a WC-TC car to run under VTS - it;s a lose-lose propostion, heavier of VTS or STU. Nobody is going to choose to run under VTS unless they *have* to - like DeBarros found out at RdAm.
Not all WC cars meet STU rules - but some do.
So thinking it through and distilling everything to the beginning... without typing out my entire thought process...
the actual question is, What is the intent of the class? To attract ex-WC cars, or to provide a place for WC cars to race?
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I don't remember this car, and I don't recall any adjustments being done to any Audi post-Runoffs other than Joel's...there is no Audi A4 with a 2.3L NA engine approved to run under a World Challenge VTS in STU.
An Audi A4 with a 2.3L normally-aspirated engine requires no restrictor and has to weigh 2530# minimum (plus any suspension pickup/move adders) and has to meet all STU specs. If this guy is under the impression he's allowed to run under a VTS, he's sadly mistaken and needs to submit a request to be classified pronto. If he does not meet all STU specs he's non-compliant to the regs.
To clarify the regs: if you want to run a car under a World Challenge VTS, you must submit a request, along with a copy of that VTS, and be explicitly classified in Table B. GCR 9.1.4.B:
World Challenge Touring cars...will be approved on a case-by-case basis with supporting World Challenge VTS documentation....See 9.1.4.2.G [sic], table of Approved World Challenge Cars.
- GA
greg, Debaros has an ex-Tindol Mazda6 2.3L NON TURBO with a restrictor per the VTS, assuming he still has the VTS-allowed intake. I'll defer to Eric's knowledge on those particulars. Car looked good from the viewing mound at T4-5 and on grid, that's all I know.
these are the cars charles espenlaub, Chip herr etc.. ran in WCTC, they had white and green livery back then.
these are the cars charles espenlaub, Chip herr etc.. ran in WCTC, they had white and green livery back then.
Ah, Mazda (where did I get "Audi"???) Yes, I remember that car from the Runoffs.
I don't know the particulars of it, but if it's running that wild-ass intake it's definitely under the Mazda 6 VTS, running a 50.4mm flat-plate and 3045#. That car was classified in WCTC in 2009 with that same restrictor and 2900#, so its current weight is 5% over that. If he wants to dump the restrictor and weight, then all he has to do is meet all STU specs and he can lose 500#...the VTS from Feb 2009 shows they were already running it at 12:1, and cam lift on the intake side was .52" (don't know the rocker ratio, if there is one). If I were him, I'd dump that intake along with 500# and make sure the rest of the car is STU-spec.
GA
I don't know the particulars of it, but if it's running that wild-ass intake it's definitely under the Mazda 6 VTS, running a 50.4mm flat-plate and 3045#. That car was classified in WCTC in 2009 with that same restrictor and 2900#, so its current weight is 5% over that. If he wants to dump the restrictor and weight, then all he has to do is meet all STU specs and he can lose 500#...the VTS from Feb 2009 shows they were already running it at 12:1, and cam lift on the intake side was .52" (don't know the rocker ratio, if there is one). If I were him, I'd dump that intake along with 500# and make sure the rest of the car is STU-spec.
GA
I think the intake is what makes the whole thing work. Kinda like a Mercedes Cossie W201 2.3L-16v - magical motor, but the stock intake is abysmal.
The car also has fabricated suspension and a sequential race 'box.
500 pounds' worth of "work"...?
I'll see what I can find out, or we'll wait to see what lap times look like at VIR in a few months.
sequential is 100# and fabricated suspension on each end is another 100#, so that's actually 300#
EDIT1: as for Sebring vs RdAm - prelim research indicates Sebring is about 6 seconds a alp faster than RdAm in BMW's. so a 2:24 at Sebring is pretty consistent with a 2:30 at RdAM in the same car. Sebring IIRC is Mike's home track. The car may have been new to him last year, who knows?
EDIT2: ALMS GTC times at Sebring was 2.07, Road America was 2.14 so yeah, I guess so. Looks like 6-7sec/lap.
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anyone have a data point on the expected difference in lap times at sebring between R888 or RA1 toyos and BFG R1 or the Hoosier R6? WCTC ran sebring on toyos, Irish Mike runs BFGs which easily might be worth a second or more.
to quote bill Auberlin during the first weekend of the R888: "so far not diggin' them"
to quote bill Auberlin during the first weekend of the R888: "so far not diggin' them"
Auberlen was turning 2:26's at Road America and going through the kink at 116 on Toyos in the Turner 325 TC car