car choice

K

Khammitte

New member
Hello,

I am not yet a racer. I have been attending track days for three years now with BMWCCA, Trackmasters, SCDA and the like. I will be attending a Skippy school this winter and maybe a SCCA school in the spring.

Here is the dilemma. I own a 1990 BMW 325is that is fairly well sorted out for track duty. It is reliable, handles well and has a half cage. My current plan is to prepare the car for ITS, but I have also looked into buying a Spec Miata. My questions: Does my E30 have enough potential to eventually be in the middle of the pack? Am I relegating myself to the far back? I have attended a few ITS races and saw nary one E30 and the races results pages never state whether a particular car is an E30 or E36 325is. Any thoughts?

Thank you
Keith Hammitte
 
Welcome to the madness Keith!

You hae a great backgound for what you are about to embark on.

I don't consider myself an expert on the E30, but, to some degree at least, the results speak for themselves. Rarely do we see one near the front.

So, the question becomes: why?

Is it because not many were built? That nobody has discovered the "magic formula" to make that particular car fast? Or that it has intrinsic issues that hold its performance down.

I personally think that they made enough of them, that there is a ton of development work done on them by the various aftermarket supppliers and club guys like yourself. So.....that leaves the last one.

It could be that the car can do very well, but everyone knows the E-36 is the car to have, and BMW guys naturally choose that one, leaving the rest unloved.

So....you need to ask yourself a few questions-

1- What does the knowledge base for this car suggest it can do vs. the E36? ie: what will the IT developed power to weight ratio be? Can it handle and brake with the E-36? If you find that it compares well, then you know it won't be a back-packer.

2- You also have to soul search...how invested in the car will YOU become? After a year or two,if you decide it isn't cutting it, will you be able to sell it for whatever you can get and find something else?

3- Finally, money is an issue. You will need to develop the car further for racing. If it doesn't run well enough, you will need to sell and buy anohter, and perhaps develop that one...$. So, it could get pricey. Look at used ITS E30s for an idea of the worth the car will have.

ITS is currently the fastest of the IT category classes, and thusly the most expensive.

SM is a known issue, and for the most part, the fast guys wind up near the front. (Another proof of "the big nuts always rise to the top of the jar" theory) Talent counts a lot. So that makes it a great place to learn. The guys at the front are very fast, and spend a lot of money extracting the last few tenths from the car, but the guys who do well regionally have a more controlled budget. Plus the class will be going national in '06 (?) (can you say "Runoffs Invitation"???? So that might be a factor as well.

I can see you spending (depending on what you've done so far) enough money on your car to make it fast in ITS to buy an SM.

So, and I hate to say this(!), you can't go wrong in an SM from a learning standpoint, and financially it is probably more viable than ITS.

Now, that said, I also think ITS is probably not the first place I would send a first time driver. IF you love BMWs, and have plenty of funding, perhaps it could work for you. Or if you love BMWs and IT, look at buying an existing BMW for another IT class, like ITA. You can sell your current car to a club guy, you'll be far ahead financially that way, and will be in the sme position competively as you would in ITS.

Keep in mind the number one rule of race car buying: It is always cheaper (by a lot) to buy a finsihed car than it is to build one yourself.....

It IS hard to beat SM for economy, close racing, huge fields, and as a fast learning tool. The mindset is different, and there is a bit of a reputation for "rubbing" (some call it crashing). Plus you don't have to work on your car much. But you will learn paint and bodywork more quickly in that class than any other!

That's the long answer...

The short answer? The E30 will easily run mid pack or better, if prepped and driven well, but it's doubtful it will see the speed of the E-36. And it could be pricey to get there.

Good luck!

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
>>> I am not yet a racer.

"Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here" - Dante

Keith, run while you can. If not, welcome to the fever.

I think you'll find that while the E36 is the top dog at the current time, your E30 can still be competitive. Mid-pack for a well-driven E30 is not a problem; in fact you can reasonably expect to be in the top-10 if not the top-5 at any given race. I ran ITS for the last couple of years in a Nissan NX2000 (140hp, front wheel drive) and I consistently finished at or near top-10, always mid-pack or better.

In fact, didn't Mike Sabetello win one at LRP this year in an E30?

GregA
 
How much do you think you could get for the E30 you have? Do you need it for daily driving as well? What are your long term goals? How much are you willing to spend to get it on the track then later in developing it? (just a question for yourself not actually looking for an answer)

There are some very tempting cars for sale out there.

Jake brought up a lot of good questions for you to think about...

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si
 
Thanks for the replies. There a lot of questions to consider, not the least of which is this: If I buy a Miata now, my E30 can be returned to a nice street car relatively easily. The body is in great shape.

How viable is it to arrive and drive? My wife is also engaging in this madness (she drives an E30 M3 and will race in BMWCCA club racing) so we will be buying a truck and trailer, but the budget says no to two.
 
How viable is doing an arrive and drive? Being from the Boston area, you’re probably about 2 hrs from LRP and 1 ½ from NHIS?

Because you’ll need to keep the car street legal, the exhaust noise shouldn’t be too bad. I know someone who drives their SM to be on the street with the SM exhaust and it isn’t bad.

So the choices are to race two cars while driving one of them to the track or only race one car. My guess is you already have made the decision. Will you see many people doing it? No. One of the biggest negatives about driving the car to the track is what if something happens to the car while there? And stuff will happen. I’m not talking about wrecking the car but silly stuff like braking a hub (hypothetically of course – grrr!). But your situation is a little different since you will have one trailer and tow vehicle at the track. Having the ability to tow one of the cars home will be very helpful. Worst case if something happened to both cars, you could tow one home and get the other one later. If I were in you shoes, I’d give it a shot.

Diane who occasionally posts here drives her car to the track while Tim trailers his. Diane, how does this work for you?

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si
 
coming from an x sm racer. the racing is great through out the fieild. but as said above, become friends with a body shop. its sad how many cars were wrecked this past year. rick ITA 06
 
The E-30 still has the lap record at Nelson Ledges. It is a second tier ITS car, comprable to the Z's, 7's and GSR's.
But it will cost you 25% more than a Miata to build, and 50% more to race, and be worth less if you sell it.

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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series
 
mike sabatello won the first race at lime rock this season in an e30. there was another e30 at beaverun in august that finished 2nd (i believe) to marc cefalo in august. i think the car is atleaset a mid pack car and with a good driver better than that.
john costello
its rx7 #87
 
Jake provided the long answer and I agree with his statements. I ran an ITS E30 for 5 years (1998-2002) and it was a top 5 finishing car. However the RX-7's were begining to be well developed and the E36 was being classed. I knew the car would start moving backwards on the grid, so I built an E36. I believe the E30 is still a car which can compete at the front of the mid-pack (5th - 10th). It handles better than the E36 and brakes just as well, it only lacks the torque to be its equal. If you, like me, need to race BMW than go ahead and build your car. However, you need to understand that the car will have limited resale potential. My advice would be to rent or purchase a car already built than to start with a valuable street car.

I would also suggest SM as an economical alternative with great racing. The cost of building and maintaining a car is a lot less than ITS, the fields are large, and there is great racing throughout the pack.

(Shameless sponsor plug follows
smile.gif

My sponsor, C-Tech Racing Rentals, has a newly built ITA E30 available for rent or sale. Please let me know if you would like more information about that option.

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Ed Tisdale
#22 ITS '95 325is
Racing BMW's since 1984
 
Again thanks everyone for the replies. I am still wallowing in indecision, probably will wallow a bit more before its over. Is there anything to be said for learning to race with a car your very familar with, or is that a non-issue?

Ed, I am interested in the sale/rental option

Keith Hammitte
[email protected]
 
Originally posted by gran racing:
Diane who occasionally posts here drives her car to the track while Tim trailers his. Diane, how does this work for you?
Click to expand...

Works great for us! Theory was that if I broke mine, I'd just drive his home. Never had to worry about it.

I also ran the John Stim in 2002 and drove to the event with the tires & gear in the back of the car while Tim was visiting his family out of state. If I broke so I couldn't drive home, I was going to bum a ride home and come back with the van and trailer later.

Just make sure the "road" car is truly road worthy. I still drive mine on the street when I can even though it's a pain to run errands in.
biggrin.gif


Diane
 
Keith...By "arrive and drive" did you mean rent a car that was delivered and prepped? Plenty of cars are available...Andy Bettencourt posts here and his team, Flatout Motorsports has a SM for rent. keep in mind the major drawback to renting a car, especially an SM...you break it (or someone else, for that matter!), you buy it.

If I read you correctly, you want to do SCCA and your wife is going to do BMWCCA club racing?? Different events on different days, usually. (And I am SURE you will be there when SHE races...right??
wink.gif
) So, if I read this right, one truck and trailer would do the trick.

I drove my car my first year. I was a great experience, and my last race in '93 at Lime Rock was a very proud 5th place run in the first Mini Stock NASCAR support race. It's a major buzz finishing well in a car you drove to the track.

Of course, that same year the axle parted company at NHIS (3.5 hrs away), and the motor ceased turning on the back straight at WGI, (5+ hrs away, causing me to rent a car to get home, then "borrow" the work van and a trailer the following weekend to fetch the car. And a set of new pads for the van...), Which proved the theory that cars DO have a sense of humor....

Still, it made the season most memorable...

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
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