Carbon Fiber Body Parts???
- Thread starter AE86ITA
- Start date
They don't, therefore they're not allowed.
Read the beginning of the IT regs; it states something along the lines of "no changes are allowed unless specifically allowed", or in the vernacular 'if it doesn't say you can, then you cannot'.
IIDSYCTYC.
- GA
Words. Lots and lots of written words: http://www.scca.com/clubracing/content.cfm?cid=44472
In particular, the General Competition Rules, up-to-date through September: http://www.scca.com/assets/2013%20GCR%20September.pdf
Guys; normally people locally ask me for rules interpretation due to either language barrier or lack of time so I understand, the thing is We've been trying to show new competitors what the rules are and then there're some that just need to see it in writing.
Thanks,
Thanks,
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It *is* in writing, at the very beginning of the IT regs. Just look in the opening paragraphs where it says you can only do what is specifically allowed within the regs.
You will not find a reg that says you "can't" do specific things, let along carbon fiber body panel. It is physically and metaphorically impossible to list out all the things you cannot do. Instead, the regs instead turn it around and say you can't do ANYTHING unless we say in here that you can. And nowhere in there does it say you can do carbon fiber body panels.
- GA
Dano77
New member
As I understand, through years of trial and error, what Greg is saying. Lets not get snippy here.
The Original poster asked where it was written. Its not. We all know what NOT written means. BUT when you are talking to a new member/builder of a car, he/she sometimes needs it to say You Cannot Use XXX as well as you CAN use YYY.
Ive been on both sides of this as recently as this season. Its real easy when talking to someone who May come to a race, to hear that statement. It doesn't say I cant run it, its a race car why cant I run it. The tough part is keeping them interested after that conversation and they find out they need to scrap the ENTIRE Itchy Zoomy Body kit they just had painted to match the roll cage, and install stock(shudder) fenders.
Just my 2 cents
This again goes to the graying of the club. Kids like flashy cars, as well as engine mods.
The Original poster asked where it was written. Its not. We all know what NOT written means. BUT when you are talking to a new member/builder of a car, he/she sometimes needs it to say You Cannot Use XXX as well as you CAN use YYY.
Ive been on both sides of this as recently as this season. Its real easy when talking to someone who May come to a race, to hear that statement. It doesn't say I cant run it, its a race car why cant I run it. The tough part is keeping them interested after that conversation and they find out they need to scrap the ENTIRE Itchy Zoomy Body kit they just had painted to match the roll cage, and install stock(shudder) fenders.
Just my 2 cents
This again goes to the graying of the club. Kids like flashy cars, as well as engine mods.
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Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Kinda - what that says to me is that 'they' have a cursory knowledge of the rules but not a full understanding. The IT rules are realatively simple. They state in the very beginning that the only allowances that are legal are what is in the rules. Nothing else.
Hence:
"If it doesn't say you can, then you can't"
IIDSYCTYC.
Hence:
"If it doesn't say you can, then you can't"
IIDSYCTYC.
erlrich
Super Moderator
But we do have classes for all that...just not IT. Also, I'm not sure the original question has as much to do with the graying of the club as the fact that the younger generations don't seem to have the desire/patience/willingness to spend a little time researching rules before they go out and make a bunch of modifications to their cars.
Matt93SE
New member
Or that they've been modifying their car for years to make it what they want, and NOW they've decided they want to race the car and are trying to find a place to play.
that's the whole reason I landed in STU. I started building a car the way I wanted for HPDEs and AutoX about 8 years ago. when I decided I had the skills and finances to race wheel-to-wheel, the only SCCA class that my car fit in was STU and even then I had to remove several cheap mods (suspension links) that really make the car handle better and eat less tire.
The club-as a whole- seems incredibly adverse to "tuner parts" like big brakes, adjustable suspension links, and fiberglass bodywork.. Other sanctioning bodies welcome these people with open arms, while the scotch-drinking greyhairs are pouring through the rulebook trying to come up with a reason they can't be on track at the same time as their 1967 LeakingBritishDeathTrap.
JLawton
New member
You guys all have to admit, the IT rules arent the easiest to interpret. When I built my first car I read the rules over and over before I felt confident that I had captured the nuances. I didnt have anyone to turn to to ask questions and still managed to screw some things up.........
Then again, I'm not one of the sharpest tools in the shed.............
I guess I'll have to strip the neon lights out from underneith my car............
Then again, I'm not one of the sharpest tools in the shed.............
I guess I'll have to strip the neon lights out from underneith my car............
and we REALLY are talking about an Island here. PR Region does not have the luxury of being able to drive out to the nearest track on the weekend and talk to the guys who are already running SCCA. they are building a new group with our existing rules and without our paradigms. and they have an established culture built from badass old Toyotas, Nissans, Mazdas, and Hondas that really doesn't fit into our club well, even if the nameplates do.
and yes, our rules are complicated because they've grown and evolved to answer the problems they have encountered over the years, where new people come to them without our cultural understanding, just wanting to hit the track with a "cool" car. I get the same sort of reactions at HPDEs that we are hearing here. "why wouldn't you put on composite fenders, add turbo, bolt in JDM/EDM/better USDM known to be awesome motor, pull the headlight for cold air, add a wing, add a body kit, open the grille up, go big on the wheels, go big on the brakes, etc..."
some of this stuff we know to be useless or negative improvement on track (i.e. useless bling or form over function), others just fall outside of the ability to establish parity or regulations to govern fairly via a rulebook and a bunch of disconnected volunteers, some of it is purely "that's not how we do it". we don't want to add classes, and we were overly conservative with ST to a degree , IMHO (though it is the closest thing to the droid they are looking for). so the kids sit there scratching their heads wonder WTF this SCCA thing is all about.
and yes, our rules are complicated because they've grown and evolved to answer the problems they have encountered over the years, where new people come to them without our cultural understanding, just wanting to hit the track with a "cool" car. I get the same sort of reactions at HPDEs that we are hearing here. "why wouldn't you put on composite fenders, add turbo, bolt in JDM/EDM/better USDM known to be awesome motor, pull the headlight for cold air, add a wing, add a body kit, open the grille up, go big on the wheels, go big on the brakes, etc..."
some of this stuff we know to be useless or negative improvement on track (i.e. useless bling or form over function), others just fall outside of the ability to establish parity or regulations to govern fairly via a rulebook and a bunch of disconnected volunteers, some of it is purely "that's not how we do it". we don't want to add classes, and we were overly conservative with ST to a degree , IMHO (though it is the closest thing to the droid they are looking for). so the kids sit there scratching their heads wonder WTF this SCCA thing is all about.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Chip's right here. Efrain is just trying to get our help in explaining to people who might not be able to read the English written word, what the rules are.
Lets face it, everywhere we go, we are faced with rules the limit our behavior. No parking. No smoking, No right turn on red, etc etc etc. So, to the average person, it's odd to encounter rules based on allowances only, with everything NOT mentioned being "don't touch".
Lets face it, everywhere we go, we are faced with rules the limit our behavior. No parking. No smoking, No right turn on red, etc etc etc. So, to the average person, it's odd to encounter rules based on allowances only, with everything NOT mentioned being "don't touch".
lawtonglenn
New member
+1
Efrain ... why don't you champion the development of a healthy STL and STU population, which is closer to what the entering participants already have and understand, rather than trying to get them to "undo racing improvements" to fit the Improved Touring ruleset?
.
So how is reading those rules to someone on the Internet - using written English - going to resolve that...? Are you implying that people on this forum are better at reading the regs to someone than them reading it themselves?
The difference here is not because of gray hair or because of geography or because of language, the difference here is regulated competition versus anarchical, pseudo-competition HPDE/street "racing". I'll wager a dollar to a donut that everyone that has "issues" with the regs came into them with a pre-disposed mindset (e.g., Jeff Lawton with his roundy-round and PCA background; our guys in PR with existing cars).
The IT regs are really not that hard to read. They may be frustrating to someone wanting to race a car with existing specific mods, but I think they're pretty damn well-written, especially if you read them for what they say ('ok, what can I do here?'), not skim them looking for what you want them to say ('OK, I've got CF fenders, where can I do that?'). The issue here is a mindset, not a problem of verbiage. It's a difference of "hey, I built this really awesome car for the street and now I want to take it racing" versus "I want to go racing, what kind of car do I need to build?"
Unless you get to someone early in their participation curve, it's the mindset you need to attack, not the regs or the mods already on the car. And the absolute core of the ITCS mindset is IIDSYCTYC.
Get that in your noggin and everything else falls right into place.
- GA
and I think this forum is doing Efrain's efforts in the PRR a service if we help make that clear to him, so that he might make it clear to them.
I say again, the guys out there don't have the existing culture to help them get into the rules and philosophy. They DO have a bunch of existing cars built around some common themes - SCCA didn't get in there early enough - too busy out in California with GIs and used airstrips, I guess. we have similar stuff on the continent but we also have a long tradition of SCCA and established groups to help attract and coach new people.
They are reading a somewhat anachronistic rulebook with English as a second language. you already understand the IIDSYCYC concept. it's good to point it out. let Efrain carry that back to the rest of the group and see what they come back with. the worst thing we can do as SCCA members is get grumpy with or frustrated by outsiders looking in and asking questions that seem reasonable from their perspective.
I say again, the guys out there don't have the existing culture to help them get into the rules and philosophy. They DO have a bunch of existing cars built around some common themes - SCCA didn't get in there early enough - too busy out in California with GIs and used airstrips, I guess. we have similar stuff on the continent but we also have a long tradition of SCCA and established groups to help attract and coach new people.
They are reading a somewhat anachronistic rulebook with English as a second language. you already understand the IIDSYCYC concept. it's good to point it out. let Efrain carry that back to the rest of the group and see what they come back with. the worst thing we can do as SCCA members is get grumpy with or frustrated by outsiders looking in and asking questions that seem reasonable from their perspective.