tom_sprecher
Super Moderator
With the high cost of racing radios and the poor quality of communication I have experienced with them (especially at Road Atlanta) does anyone make a cell phone based system or do I have to invent something again?
Cell Phone Based Racing Communications
- Thread starter tom_sprecher
- Start date
Gary Gentry
New member
Please, do share....
pballance
New member
I will post a lengthy report on what I and several other racers did to obtain racing radios tomorrow or Friday when I have time to so a good write up. In short, buying from a "racing radio" dealer costs $$$$ and I put together a 9 radio system for under a grand. BTW, in my day job I build communications vehicles for Homeland security Interoperability. It can be done cheaper than what most radio dealers would like you to believe.
I talked to a friend & fellow racer who used to work in the cell phone industry about using phones. In theory it should work, but here were the stubling blocks - if you lose the signal, its difficult to re-establish the call. No one makes hardware that makes it easy to wire into a helmet, or have the re-dial capability w/ gloves on so you're back to a custom set up and yes, many tracks have wretched coverage so the need to re-establish the call would be huge.
Even w/ Nextel sponsoring NASCAR, I think those guys still use regular VHF or UHF radios.
I have gathered that what the radio systems are worth is a wee bit more than what it takes to put them together. A friend who works in the electronics industry looked at the car harness & a helmet harness one time & shook his head, said he should just close down his company and sell radios to racers. The mark ups were pretty high. So please do tell more.
Matt
Even w/ Nextel sponsoring NASCAR, I think those guys still use regular VHF or UHF radios.
I have gathered that what the radio systems are worth is a wee bit more than what it takes to put them together. A friend who works in the electronics industry looked at the car harness & a helmet harness one time & shook his head, said he should just close down his company and sell radios to racers. The mark ups were pretty high. So please do tell more.
Matt
pballance
New member
Here is what we did, I have not edited it as I went ahead and knocked it out this evening. I am sure I will edit it some more and you guys will have questions. I am by no means an expert on radios but I do know how to make them work and have more than 25 years of practical experience with handheld radio communications. I used them for at least 5 days a week for all of those years.
If you want more specific information you can email me or pm for my email and I will try to help. I feel like I owe it to the collective knowledge on this board to give a little back. I have learned much from you guys and look forward to continuing to learn! Thanks
During a discussion over pizza and beer at a SCCA SeDiv Time Trial event several local racers decided that it was time to move into the information age and equip our cars with two way radios. We bantered over the Family Radio Services (FRS) radios we were accustomed to at the local autocross events to GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service) that requires an FCC license to operate. Since I am actively involved in the communications business I volunteered to spearhead this effort. I am by no means an expert but I have more than 25 years of practical experience with hand held radios as a now retired law enforcement officer.
We decided on several priorities that were essential for our communication system:
1. We needed hand held radios for the cars as mobile radios were heavy and I was the only driver with a door slammer. We had two D Sports racers, a Formula Vee and me with the lowly ITS car.
2. The radios had to be at least 4 watts of output power which requires an FCC license.
3. Each radio needed to be at least 4 channels and preferable 8 or more so we could use them without interfering with track communications or other race teams
4. We needed external antennas on each car to improve ranges
5. We needed in helmet with remote push to talk switches
6. We needed Crew headsets that included dual muff headsets
7. All of the radios needed to be compatible so we could “lend” them to one another at the track
8. We would each share equally in the total cost of this venture and we needed to spend as little money as possible
All of these things should be common to every race team that wants to use radios at the track and of course we all want it cheap.
A couple of things to keep in mind is that hand held radios work on any one of several frequency bands. The most common bands are very high frequency (VHF), ultra high frequency (UHF), 800 megahertz band, and others. The FRS radios that are so popular are usually in the UHF band and are less than 2 watts of output power.
Each band has certain advantages that are inherent to the physics of the radio waves themselves. You also must consider the terrain. Elevations changes will affect the radio transmissions and make communications more difficult. Some of this can be overcome if you use the characteristics of the different radios frequencies to your advantage.
I will try to make it as simple as possible; VHF is good for longer range communications. The waveform allows the signal to travel farther than a UHF radio that is emitting the same amount of power. UHF will do a better job of penetrating tree cover and other buildings that might hinder communications but will not travel as far. 800 MHz penetrates better than either of the other two but is expensive and doesn’t do very well with terrain changes at all and may require expensive repeater stations to work at a large track. These are generalizations and hold generally true in the world of operational communications. I am sure that more than one reader of this is an engineer or amateur radio operator that will take issue with my generalizations. I will say this, you can communicate from the east coast of the United States to the west coast on only a couple of watts given the right frequency, antenna, and atmospheric conditions.
Cell phones operate in the GHz band and usually use around 200 milli-watts of power. Everybody knows how questionable cell phones can be. Can you hear me now?
Armed with the practical knowledge of VHF and UHF radios I set off looking for cheap radios that met our requirements I called my normal radio supplier asking if they had any used handhelds that fit our bill and was told that used radios are in high demand and I would probably to better to buy new. When I asked about prices of a 4 channel handheld it was nearly $500.00 each. I knew that wouldn’t work.
I started the search looking for major brand name radios, used but in good condition with no obvious problems. I had almost always used Motorola radios in the past and I know they are good reliable radios but they are also expensive. Kenwood is another brand that I have had good service. While there are other suppliers and there are a number of good quality import clones, I was not comfortable with them.
I started looking at the racing radio suppliers and was amazed at what I found. Two hand held radio “starter” radio systems that cost in excess of $1500.00. A single add on “crew” system for $750.00 that included a single radio, a noise cancelling dual muff headset, charger, and a belt. Many of these radios were off brand clones that may work fine and then again they may not. I couldn’t see spending that kind of money on clones.
IT was EBay time. After doing some basic research on what radios were currently being produced by the major manufacturers I started looking for recently discontinued radios in used but good condition. I also started looking at government auctions of outdated police and fire equipment. Individual radios that met our needs were selling for $200+ dollars each. Headsets like those I have used on corner stations were $99.00 and up even though they are ideal for the crew member.
With some judicious bidding I was able to purchase 9 used UHF, 4 channel radios in a single lot that fit our needs. They were a mixed bag of Motorola and Kenwood that had been used by an apartment complex for their maintenance staff and included a couple of new batteries. I was able to buy the entire lot for just over $550.00. Phase one was complete as I had the radios.
I took the radios to our local radio repair shop and left them to be completely checked out, cleaned, calibrated and adjusted as necessary. Fortunately only minor issues needed to be corrected; a knob or two here, an adjustment there but I needed to buy 3 new batteries. Expect to pay about $50 or more for each battery you may need. It has been my experience that batteries are the weak point in these kinds of radios and you need to have good batteries, preferably OEM, to achieve good performance.
Now I needed to find helmet gear and crew headsets. I was able to buy three crew headsets for less than $100.00 total. Each of these are over the head, dual muff, adjustable microphone, and separate push to talk button headsets. They all required rewiring to fit our newly purchased radios but the cables to rewire were $7.95 each on EBay. So now we have enough headsets for 3 crew members.
Helmet speaker and mikes looked pretty expensive when I first started looking around. Throat microphones, “Secret Service” style, in the ear acoustic tubes, and others. I wasn’t sure which way to go until I talked with a coworker who rides touring motorcycles. He recommended the popular style for the off-road 4 wheeler crowd. A simple Velcro attachment for the microphone and “self stick” helmet speakers. He was using them on his bike for FRS radios when he was riding in a group and he said they did fine even with the wind noise on a bike. Back to EBay where another $100 or so bought us four in-helmet systems.
I still needed antennas but I had those on hand from some previous work so the cost was minimal. If you have to go and buy antennas and adapters for the handhelds expect to spend about $30-$40 dollars for each car.
A long story to illustrate a “cheap” way to obtain a racing radio system. To sum up this effort we have the following items on hand:
• 9 four channel UHF radios, Motorola or Kenwood brand with chargers completely tuned and ready for use
• 4 in- helmet microphone-speaker systems with steering wheel mounted push to talk switches
• 3 Crew dual muff headsets
• 4 external antennas
The total cost for this system including shipping from the EBay vendors $994.06 or when we split the cost among the four of us $220.90 each. Each one of us would receive two radios (one each of Motorola and Kenwood), chargers, antenna and helmet headset. If I can purchase one more EBay crew headset at the same prices we will each have a crew headset as well for an additional $5 -8 dollars each.
One cost not included above is the FCC license which is valid for 5 years and costs $80.00. Anyone can purchase one of these online at FCC.gov.
By being frugal and armed with a little bit of knowledge our fledgling race efforts will enter the technology arena with in car radio systems in 2008. I will let you know how they work out but I think they will work fine. Will they work from the back stretch at Road Atlanta to the pits? Probably not as it is a factor of terrain more than radio capability. Will they work at a roval? Absolutely! At Roebling? No problem! At other long courses like VIR? More than likely there will be some “dead” spots but 70-80% of the track should be covered as well as Road Atlanta.
Not perfect but better than not at all and certainly cheaper than buying a racing radio system from a vendor.
If you want more specific information you can email me or pm for my email and I will try to help. I feel like I owe it to the collective knowledge on this board to give a little back. I have learned much from you guys and look forward to continuing to learn! Thanks
During a discussion over pizza and beer at a SCCA SeDiv Time Trial event several local racers decided that it was time to move into the information age and equip our cars with two way radios. We bantered over the Family Radio Services (FRS) radios we were accustomed to at the local autocross events to GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service) that requires an FCC license to operate. Since I am actively involved in the communications business I volunteered to spearhead this effort. I am by no means an expert but I have more than 25 years of practical experience with hand held radios as a now retired law enforcement officer.
We decided on several priorities that were essential for our communication system:
1. We needed hand held radios for the cars as mobile radios were heavy and I was the only driver with a door slammer. We had two D Sports racers, a Formula Vee and me with the lowly ITS car.
2. The radios had to be at least 4 watts of output power which requires an FCC license.
3. Each radio needed to be at least 4 channels and preferable 8 or more so we could use them without interfering with track communications or other race teams
4. We needed external antennas on each car to improve ranges
5. We needed in helmet with remote push to talk switches
6. We needed Crew headsets that included dual muff headsets
7. All of the radios needed to be compatible so we could “lend” them to one another at the track
8. We would each share equally in the total cost of this venture and we needed to spend as little money as possible
All of these things should be common to every race team that wants to use radios at the track and of course we all want it cheap.
A couple of things to keep in mind is that hand held radios work on any one of several frequency bands. The most common bands are very high frequency (VHF), ultra high frequency (UHF), 800 megahertz band, and others. The FRS radios that are so popular are usually in the UHF band and are less than 2 watts of output power.
Each band has certain advantages that are inherent to the physics of the radio waves themselves. You also must consider the terrain. Elevations changes will affect the radio transmissions and make communications more difficult. Some of this can be overcome if you use the characteristics of the different radios frequencies to your advantage.
I will try to make it as simple as possible; VHF is good for longer range communications. The waveform allows the signal to travel farther than a UHF radio that is emitting the same amount of power. UHF will do a better job of penetrating tree cover and other buildings that might hinder communications but will not travel as far. 800 MHz penetrates better than either of the other two but is expensive and doesn’t do very well with terrain changes at all and may require expensive repeater stations to work at a large track. These are generalizations and hold generally true in the world of operational communications. I am sure that more than one reader of this is an engineer or amateur radio operator that will take issue with my generalizations. I will say this, you can communicate from the east coast of the United States to the west coast on only a couple of watts given the right frequency, antenna, and atmospheric conditions.
Cell phones operate in the GHz band and usually use around 200 milli-watts of power. Everybody knows how questionable cell phones can be. Can you hear me now?
Armed with the practical knowledge of VHF and UHF radios I set off looking for cheap radios that met our requirements I called my normal radio supplier asking if they had any used handhelds that fit our bill and was told that used radios are in high demand and I would probably to better to buy new. When I asked about prices of a 4 channel handheld it was nearly $500.00 each. I knew that wouldn’t work.
I started the search looking for major brand name radios, used but in good condition with no obvious problems. I had almost always used Motorola radios in the past and I know they are good reliable radios but they are also expensive. Kenwood is another brand that I have had good service. While there are other suppliers and there are a number of good quality import clones, I was not comfortable with them.
I started looking at the racing radio suppliers and was amazed at what I found. Two hand held radio “starter” radio systems that cost in excess of $1500.00. A single add on “crew” system for $750.00 that included a single radio, a noise cancelling dual muff headset, charger, and a belt. Many of these radios were off brand clones that may work fine and then again they may not. I couldn’t see spending that kind of money on clones.
IT was EBay time. After doing some basic research on what radios were currently being produced by the major manufacturers I started looking for recently discontinued radios in used but good condition. I also started looking at government auctions of outdated police and fire equipment. Individual radios that met our needs were selling for $200+ dollars each. Headsets like those I have used on corner stations were $99.00 and up even though they are ideal for the crew member.
With some judicious bidding I was able to purchase 9 used UHF, 4 channel radios in a single lot that fit our needs. They were a mixed bag of Motorola and Kenwood that had been used by an apartment complex for their maintenance staff and included a couple of new batteries. I was able to buy the entire lot for just over $550.00. Phase one was complete as I had the radios.
I took the radios to our local radio repair shop and left them to be completely checked out, cleaned, calibrated and adjusted as necessary. Fortunately only minor issues needed to be corrected; a knob or two here, an adjustment there but I needed to buy 3 new batteries. Expect to pay about $50 or more for each battery you may need. It has been my experience that batteries are the weak point in these kinds of radios and you need to have good batteries, preferably OEM, to achieve good performance.
Now I needed to find helmet gear and crew headsets. I was able to buy three crew headsets for less than $100.00 total. Each of these are over the head, dual muff, adjustable microphone, and separate push to talk button headsets. They all required rewiring to fit our newly purchased radios but the cables to rewire were $7.95 each on EBay. So now we have enough headsets for 3 crew members.
Helmet speaker and mikes looked pretty expensive when I first started looking around. Throat microphones, “Secret Service” style, in the ear acoustic tubes, and others. I wasn’t sure which way to go until I talked with a coworker who rides touring motorcycles. He recommended the popular style for the off-road 4 wheeler crowd. A simple Velcro attachment for the microphone and “self stick” helmet speakers. He was using them on his bike for FRS radios when he was riding in a group and he said they did fine even with the wind noise on a bike. Back to EBay where another $100 or so bought us four in-helmet systems.
I still needed antennas but I had those on hand from some previous work so the cost was minimal. If you have to go and buy antennas and adapters for the handhelds expect to spend about $30-$40 dollars for each car.
A long story to illustrate a “cheap” way to obtain a racing radio system. To sum up this effort we have the following items on hand:
• 9 four channel UHF radios, Motorola or Kenwood brand with chargers completely tuned and ready for use
• 4 in- helmet microphone-speaker systems with steering wheel mounted push to talk switches
• 3 Crew dual muff headsets
• 4 external antennas
The total cost for this system including shipping from the EBay vendors $994.06 or when we split the cost among the four of us $220.90 each. Each one of us would receive two radios (one each of Motorola and Kenwood), chargers, antenna and helmet headset. If I can purchase one more EBay crew headset at the same prices we will each have a crew headset as well for an additional $5 -8 dollars each.
One cost not included above is the FCC license which is valid for 5 years and costs $80.00. Anyone can purchase one of these online at FCC.gov.
By being frugal and armed with a little bit of knowledge our fledgling race efforts will enter the technology arena with in car radio systems in 2008. I will let you know how they work out but I think they will work fine. Will they work from the back stretch at Road Atlanta to the pits? Probably not as it is a factor of terrain more than radio capability. Will they work at a roval? Absolutely! At Roebling? No problem! At other long courses like VIR? More than likely there will be some “dead” spots but 70-80% of the track should be covered as well as Road Atlanta.
Not perfect but better than not at all and certainly cheaper than buying a racing radio system from a vendor.
Awesome post, pballance!!! 
Wanted to add my observations on the helmet setups, much in line with what you have mentioned - we've done a lot of trial-and-error on these to make them work well.
Note that we are using FRS radios, basic Motorola 2W units, the real cheapo ones. Believe it or not, with an external antenna I can hear my crew chief nearly all the way around Road Atlanta - lose him just before Turn 6, with not really much coverage down the back straight (though he also doesn't talk usually when I'm out of sight, so a little hard to say just when and where it does work before the hill onto the front straight).
Anyway, my comments are about headsets and helmet kits. We also went for the kind of ATV/motorcycle kit you describe; ours were bought directly from Motocomm (https://www.rflimited.com/Site.asp?CID=3 - a brand of RF Limited). Those got us a system as you describe, with velcro-in speakers and mike (we have the closed-face kit, but they also sell an open-face kit with boom mike), as well as all the wiring include PTT switch (long enough to reach to velcro on to the shifter) and a nice sealed connector at the helmet. They're now going for $60 each, were $50 IIRC when I bought mine. Sounds like eBay would be a nice way to go, as described.
We also got the really cheap, maybe $20, single-ear headset for the crew. As you describe, that's not the way to go; I couldn't hear a dayum thing until we ponied up for a nice double-ear gel headset with noise-canceling mike. Likewise, until he had the earmuffs, my crew chief couldn't hear a dayum thing either - too much ambient noise.
But my in-car hearing was crap; we quickly figured out that Motocomm makes these headsets with the absolute cheapest crap components they can source. We cut off the speakers and soldered on a 1/8" jack to allow plugging in ear buds. First I tried the simple earbuds for use with stereo, iPod, MP3 player, etc. Not that great, sound quality was OK but there was too much ambient noise and it was not that easy to keep them in my ears when installing the helmet.
So I switched over to the in-ear foam style earbuds, from Sampson. Yeah, again, probably can get them cheaper on eBay - but at this point I was willing to spend $80 to hear!. They worked pretty well, but I still had a tough time getting them in prior to racing, had to tape them into my ears, and still would have them work loose half the time while slipping the helmet on. But I could hear reliably now, especially once my crew chief had that noise-canceling mike.
Some time later, a guy online did a group buy for the molding epoxy to replace the foam and make them custom-fitted - like the ones Sampson sells for I think $170? That was a huge improvement, now I don't have to futz with tape every time I put on my helmet, they stay put, keep noise out, and work just as well as before. Oh, yeah, the epoxy by itself was only $25!
Only remaining problem at this point was that my crew chief still couldn't hear me from inside the car, once the engine was on - way too much noise. Again, we decided to target the cheapest component/weak link - the in-helmet mike. This time we went directly to the supplier, and bought a high-end noise-canceling electret microphone from Newark, I think. Very expensive. I think it was about $2 for the mike, $5 for shipping!!! Of course, simple non-noise-canceling mikes were from $0.20-0.50 each! Shows you how much the Motocomm guys cheaped out when putting the kit together!!
Installation wasn't easy; had to cut off the old mike and solder the new one directly on, very carefully; it had no leads, and is very small, about the size of a watch battery, so a tricky operation. Fortunately, my crew chief is an EE, with access to the best gear, so he had no issues soldering it in.
Reinstalled in the helmet, and the improvement was nothing short of amazing; according to him, there was no difference in my transmissions with or without the engine on.
So, in summary, I highly recommend considering upgrading the speakers and mikes on these cheaper kits; we had no issues whatsoever with the crew headset, but simply by spending about $20 on upgrades for the helmet kit, the effectiveness was drastically improved. I think the noise-canceling mikes were in fact the bigger significant factor over the speakers.
HTH...
Wanted to add my observations on the helmet setups, much in line with what you have mentioned - we've done a lot of trial-and-error on these to make them work well.
Note that we are using FRS radios, basic Motorola 2W units, the real cheapo ones. Believe it or not, with an external antenna I can hear my crew chief nearly all the way around Road Atlanta - lose him just before Turn 6, with not really much coverage down the back straight (though he also doesn't talk usually when I'm out of sight, so a little hard to say just when and where it does work before the hill onto the front straight).
Anyway, my comments are about headsets and helmet kits. We also went for the kind of ATV/motorcycle kit you describe; ours were bought directly from Motocomm (https://www.rflimited.com/Site.asp?CID=3 - a brand of RF Limited). Those got us a system as you describe, with velcro-in speakers and mike (we have the closed-face kit, but they also sell an open-face kit with boom mike), as well as all the wiring include PTT switch (long enough to reach to velcro on to the shifter) and a nice sealed connector at the helmet. They're now going for $60 each, were $50 IIRC when I bought mine. Sounds like eBay would be a nice way to go, as described.
We also got the really cheap, maybe $20, single-ear headset for the crew. As you describe, that's not the way to go; I couldn't hear a dayum thing until we ponied up for a nice double-ear gel headset with noise-canceling mike. Likewise, until he had the earmuffs, my crew chief couldn't hear a dayum thing either - too much ambient noise.
But my in-car hearing was crap; we quickly figured out that Motocomm makes these headsets with the absolute cheapest crap components they can source. We cut off the speakers and soldered on a 1/8" jack to allow plugging in ear buds. First I tried the simple earbuds for use with stereo, iPod, MP3 player, etc. Not that great, sound quality was OK but there was too much ambient noise and it was not that easy to keep them in my ears when installing the helmet.
So I switched over to the in-ear foam style earbuds, from Sampson. Yeah, again, probably can get them cheaper on eBay - but at this point I was willing to spend $80 to hear!. They worked pretty well, but I still had a tough time getting them in prior to racing, had to tape them into my ears, and still would have them work loose half the time while slipping the helmet on. But I could hear reliably now, especially once my crew chief had that noise-canceling mike.
Some time later, a guy online did a group buy for the molding epoxy to replace the foam and make them custom-fitted - like the ones Sampson sells for I think $170? That was a huge improvement, now I don't have to futz with tape every time I put on my helmet, they stay put, keep noise out, and work just as well as before. Oh, yeah, the epoxy by itself was only $25!
Only remaining problem at this point was that my crew chief still couldn't hear me from inside the car, once the engine was on - way too much noise. Again, we decided to target the cheapest component/weak link - the in-helmet mike. This time we went directly to the supplier, and bought a high-end noise-canceling electret microphone from Newark, I think. Very expensive. I think it was about $2 for the mike, $5 for shipping!!! Of course, simple non-noise-canceling mikes were from $0.20-0.50 each! Shows you how much the Motocomm guys cheaped out when putting the kit together!!
Installation wasn't easy; had to cut off the old mike and solder the new one directly on, very carefully; it had no leads, and is very small, about the size of a watch battery, so a tricky operation. Fortunately, my crew chief is an EE, with access to the best gear, so he had no issues soldering it in.
Reinstalled in the helmet, and the improvement was nothing short of amazing; according to him, there was no difference in my transmissions with or without the engine on.
So, in summary, I highly recommend considering upgrading the speakers and mikes on these cheaper kits; we had no issues whatsoever with the crew headset, but simply by spending about $20 on upgrades for the helmet kit, the effectiveness was drastically improved. I think the noise-canceling mikes were in fact the bigger significant factor over the speakers.
HTH...
For a cheap radio set, get this for $415
Radios $50
http://www.amazon.com/Midland-GXT700-22-Ch...ref=oor_dp_e_rp
Helmet Kit Mic $70
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RACE-CAR-RA...sspagenameZWD1V
Foam Earbuds $65 (These HAVE to be cheaper somewhere)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Race-Car-Ra...emZ230096480847
PTT $40
http://www.sampsonracing.com/sampson_racing_new/accs.htm
Car Harness $70
http://www.sampsonracing.com/sampson_racing_new/accs.htm
Crew Headset $120
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Race-Car-Ra...emZ230096480847
Now you don't have a car antenna or pit antenna, so at Road A it still won't work that good, but I bet for $400 you cannot beat this. (well unless you do a bulk buy like the posted above)
-Tom
How did you get an external antenna into that FRS radio? I thought that was the big disadvantage of those radios over the "real" Motorola/Kenwood UHF stuff
-Tom
Radios $50
http://www.amazon.com/Midland-GXT700-22-Ch...ref=oor_dp_e_rp
Helmet Kit Mic $70
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RACE-CAR-RA...sspagenameZWD1V
Foam Earbuds $65 (These HAVE to be cheaper somewhere)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Race-Car-Ra...emZ230096480847
PTT $40
http://www.sampsonracing.com/sampson_racing_new/accs.htm
Car Harness $70
http://www.sampsonracing.com/sampson_racing_new/accs.htm
Crew Headset $120
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Race-Car-Ra...emZ230096480847
Now you don't have a car antenna or pit antenna, so at Road A it still won't work that good, but I bet for $400 you cannot beat this. (well unless you do a bulk buy like the posted above)
-Tom
How did you get an external antenna into that FRS radio? I thought that was the big disadvantage of those radios over the "real" Motorola/Kenwood UHF stuff
-Tom
Ron Earp
Administrator
Really good post guys, thanks for sharing that.
I've a question though - how well would a good old CB be for pit to car communications with line of sight work? It would be fairly easy to convert the PTT mike over to a earphone and microphone setup and a button on the wheel to talk. It'd need an unsightly antenna, but that could be bolted to the car and shortened somewhat.
Ron
I've a question though - how well would a good old CB be for pit to car communications with line of sight work? It would be fairly easy to convert the PTT mike over to a earphone and microphone setup and a button on the wheel to talk. It'd need an unsightly antenna, but that could be bolted to the car and shortened somewhat.
Ron
So would something like this work for the radios?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Two-UHF-handheld-400-4...1QQcmdZViewItem
Seems to be UHF, 5 Watt, and has a removable antenna
-Tom
http://cgi.ebay.com/Two-UHF-handheld-400-4...1QQcmdZViewItem
Seems to be UHF, 5 Watt, and has a removable antenna
-Tom
gran racing
Super Moderator
I've been giving thought about obtaining some method to know from an outside source when the green flag drops as often times I do not see it as early as possible. This is an interesting idea taken from the SM forums:
"I purchased a pair of handheld Midland GXT600 GMRS/FRS radios (from Staples) and ordered the optional AVPH@ Motorcycle microphone/headset online. (The GXT 600 is currently priced online at 59.99 while the headset/mic is currently 49.95. The GXT is still available but just discontinued so you might get a good deal at Staples or elsewhere)
Install of the headset in the helmet was simple and the sound is strong and clear in both directions. I keep the radio in a pouch velcroed next to the seat and the push to talk button (which straps around a steering wheel spoke) has a long coiled cord to wind around behind the steering wheel. Nothing got in the way of anything else.
I've not used a genuine race radio so can't compare but this was perfect from my perspective for less than $200 including the FCC license you are supposed to purchase (I did)."
Here's another idea I'd love to hear if / how it would be possible, and approximately what it would cost. I have a very limited amount of money I could spend on something (say less than $100). All I'm looking for is a tool for someone outside the car to notify me that the green flag is waiving. I'm sure many of you will think this is just a silly idea, but you should be used to that by now.
My thought is to use a light indicator inside the car to communicate that the green flag is out. Something kinda like a shift light. This light would then be activated by a person outside the car with a remote of some type. How easy and inexpensively could something like this be done?
"I purchased a pair of handheld Midland GXT600 GMRS/FRS radios (from Staples) and ordered the optional AVPH@ Motorcycle microphone/headset online. (The GXT 600 is currently priced online at 59.99 while the headset/mic is currently 49.95. The GXT is still available but just discontinued so you might get a good deal at Staples or elsewhere)
Install of the headset in the helmet was simple and the sound is strong and clear in both directions. I keep the radio in a pouch velcroed next to the seat and the push to talk button (which straps around a steering wheel spoke) has a long coiled cord to wind around behind the steering wheel. Nothing got in the way of anything else.
I've not used a genuine race radio so can't compare but this was perfect from my perspective for less than $200 including the FCC license you are supposed to purchase (I did)."
Here's another idea I'd love to hear if / how it would be possible, and approximately what it would cost. I have a very limited amount of money I could spend on something (say less than $100). All I'm looking for is a tool for someone outside the car to notify me that the green flag is waiving. I'm sure many of you will think this is just a silly idea, but you should be used to that by now.
My thought is to use a light indicator inside the car to communicate that the green flag is out. Something kinda like a shift light. This light would then be activated by a person outside the car with a remote of some type. How easy and inexpensively could something like this be done?
It's magic. Call it having an ME and an EE on staff and willing to mess with such things, flaunting the displeasure of the FCC... 
Oh, BTW - the Motocomm helmet kit I described comes with what is considered the car harness and PTT switch - so it's a better deal than what you're describing, even for the $60 and requiring upgrades (which are less than $20 more worth of parts and some soldering).
I personally wouldn't bother... sounds kinda like the idea of getting a lap timer and a shift light for $400, when you can get into a full data acq system starting at $500-600... Sure, it's nice to know when the green comes out. OTOH, to know that there's a waving yellow on the front straight at RA because somebody just got put into the pit wall, when you're still chugging up the hill, well, that's far more useful! Then there's calling out splits, intervals, etc etc... had a crappy 1st qual session at the ARRC due to ignition misfire woes - but I was able to talk my crew chief through it and salvage something from the session - he already knew as I rolled into the pits exactly what the problem was. Same thing happened in qualifying at the IT-Fest this year.
Did I mention I'm installing a new ignition this spring?!?
$100 for a pair of FRS radios, about the same for a good crew headset, and less than $100 for all the rest of what I describe. Definitely not as nice as pballance's setup, but nearly as good, and was easy for me to find.
Quite well, actually.
That's what we've used...exclusively...for enduros for the past 10+ years. A LOT of races, at a LOT of tracks. For price/performance, I'd give it an "A".
I have both UHF and VHF radios for my "sprint race" cars. I've had a ham radio license for ~35 years. I have cheapcheapcheap ways of getting good VHF and UHF radio equipment, and I can "out-radio-geek" ANYBODY on this board...but we still run CB's for the long enduros. Really.
Ever notice the big-ass antenna on that white Miata ?
Ron Earp
Administrator
John,
I was thinking they would do well at the last enduro where we tried some expensive radio equipment (not mine) that didn't work.
I think I'd like to get three CBs, one for pits, and then two cars I have in mind and go at it that way.
Do you have any tips or recommendations for CBs? What are some good recommended brands? Is there an elegant way to get the comms in the helmet?
Thanks,
Ron
I was thinking they would do well at the last enduro where we tried some expensive radio equipment (not mine) that didn't work.
I think I'd like to get three CBs, one for pits, and then two cars I have in mind and go at it that way.
Do you have any tips or recommendations for CBs? What are some good recommended brands? Is there an elegant way to get the comms in the helmet?
Thanks,
Ron
Dave Burchfield
New member
Tom,
In order to use those radios in the UHF business band between 450 - 470 MHz, they will need to be "type accepted". If you use them in the GMRS band, they may be legal. Regardless, you will need to have an FCC license because they are 5W output. Getting accessories such as batteries and cables could be a challenge since there does not seem to be a dealer that is US based.
My suggestion to all is to contact your local Ham Radio club and get the study materials for the exam and then take it. From that point, your options are almost unlimited. Equipment on the used market is inexpensive beyond your wildest belief, and your access to frequencies is near unlimited due to more than 5 Mhz while commercial bands specify a certain frequency. If someone else is on your chosen frequency, all you have to do is move to another. Also, you may use an inexpensive amplifier if you need additional range.
For the Kenwood radios, if you can find a Comet ear microphone on the used market, GRAB IT, I have been using one with great success for more than 10 years with no difficulties at all. It is a noise canceling microphone AND speaker in one that fits in your ear. For some strange reason, Comet quit making them.
Everyone on my crew holds an amateur license and my system is comprised of the ICOM IC4AT radios($50 on the used market) and David Clark headsets($40 on the used market).
Look for NiMH batteries when replacing them on your radios. They are now about the same price as the NiCad, have far greater capacity, and have no memory.
I am happy to share my experiences with the systems I have built over the years. I hold a 2nd Class Radiotelephone license since 1974 and an Amateur license since 1975.
In order to use those radios in the UHF business band between 450 - 470 MHz, they will need to be "type accepted". If you use them in the GMRS band, they may be legal. Regardless, you will need to have an FCC license because they are 5W output. Getting accessories such as batteries and cables could be a challenge since there does not seem to be a dealer that is US based.
My suggestion to all is to contact your local Ham Radio club and get the study materials for the exam and then take it. From that point, your options are almost unlimited. Equipment on the used market is inexpensive beyond your wildest belief, and your access to frequencies is near unlimited due to more than 5 Mhz while commercial bands specify a certain frequency. If someone else is on your chosen frequency, all you have to do is move to another. Also, you may use an inexpensive amplifier if you need additional range.
For the Kenwood radios, if you can find a Comet ear microphone on the used market, GRAB IT, I have been using one with great success for more than 10 years with no difficulties at all. It is a noise canceling microphone AND speaker in one that fits in your ear. For some strange reason, Comet quit making them.
Everyone on my crew holds an amateur license and my system is comprised of the ICOM IC4AT radios($50 on the used market) and David Clark headsets($40 on the used market).
Look for NiMH batteries when replacing them on your radios. They are now about the same price as the NiCad, have far greater capacity, and have no memory.
I am happy to share my experiences with the systems I have built over the years. I hold a 2nd Class Radiotelephone license since 1974 and an Amateur license since 1975.
They say that an FCC license is needed on the Midland website. I actually already have the 600GXT or whatever the model was before these. I bought them for $25 at the bigass Outdoor store in ATL when I happened to see them on 50% off sale
I agree that the $80 (total parts) is a better "deal", but for $135, you are getting the real deal foam earplugs, which are MUCH better then the velcro stuff on the inside of the helmet, and the MIC is of a very high quality. I would spend the $50 there, as you will see a difference. During a 1.5-3hr stint, the foam earplugs help take a lot of the car sound out of your head, and you get a less tired then with no hearing protection.
-Tom
We just buy cheap ones at RadioSnatch...the only requirement is that they have an external speaker jack. Usually, those are around $39 on-sale. Nobody has to spend the day clamped in to headset isolation in the pits...we just hang a big-ass speaker on that radio and turn the volume up. There are a bunch of posters here who can attest to us providing late-night stand-up comedy/general amusement for our pit neighbor with this system. Garden tractor battery will run it for at least an entire 24 hour race.
There are elegant ways to connect it all to a helmet, none of which we do. If you have the urge, a soldering iron and an understanding of impedance matching and signal levels, you can whammy something up that looks good.