Deciding if a Protest is in Order or Not

G

gran racing

Super Moderator
In another thread I recently posted, the purpose is to shed some light on the actual protest process. How to file an effective protest & more

Before getting to that point, the actual decision of moving forward with a protest needs to happen. In previous discussions we’ve discussed ways to address what someone believes to be an illegal car. One of the methods is to speak with the owner of the car about the concerns before making the decision to protest. If I’m on a somewhat friendly basis with the person, that makes sense to me. It also makes sense if it is a questionable item that that individual may have a valid reason for (it is legal) or did not believe it was illegal when installed.

When it comes down to blatant items (lets say illegal cams, illegal pistons, or items of similar nature), a part of me partially believes that maybe alerting the person of suspicions isn’t the best approach. Would filing a protest be a more effective solution and clear the air if their car is legal or not?

What are your thoughts - is it better to confront the person with your concerns of their car (again, blatant items) or move forward with a protest? Any other suggestions on ways to handle these situations?

Jake G., in the other thread you mentioned doing investigation on that car. With items that can not be seen, do you have recommendations on how this can be done for various items?
 
The only thing I see in this huge mysterious process is, that there is safety in numbers. I think if there's something fishy the best way (ie safest) may be with a group of several drivers. The thing that always wories me is retaliation especially on track. I've had several things that burned my biscuit enough to protest but never did because of fear.....(call me names if you need to)


R
 
Dave-

I have certainly gone about this many different ways... and for whatever reason retaliation is the name of the game and something I personally am not interested in. I have been on both sides of the fence... and it is fustrating no matter how it is handled... Each year I try something different and find myself upset because I am unable to please everyone. Here are a few examples of approaches...

1) First approach that most use... lets talk behind the back of the person in question, afterall he/she has friends and someone will tell them what is wrong and they will fix it. :bash_1_: Bad approach. I have been on both sides of the fence on this one. First nothing gets fixed and people just spread fustrating rumors. If the driver is knowing illigal he/she continues to push his/her luck, and why not knowone has done anything yet (Including confrunting them). If the driver truley doesn't have the knowledge to know if he/she is illigal or not he/she doesn't change anything cause they don't know how or what to change. The end result to me is that until someone publicaly confronts the person no debate or education process can take place. Also many times those spreading the rumors have no actual clue what is or is not illigal, just that it has to be illigal because they are fast.

2) Second approach talk to the driver... again, 1/2 the time it is a bad approach as someone whom you have always raced well with now get pissed and a freindship is over. For whatever reason people seem to get very angry whenever someone questions what they are doing. Either way it is a loose loose situation. Sometimes it is an entire group that goes and talks to a driver... This also doesn't work as 1 person generally is the spokesperson and he/she quickly becomes the target even though it was a group effort.

3) Publically present the case for all to know/see your view... I did this as a spokesperson for a LARGE group of drivers last year and I certainly lost a few potential friends and upset many people... and for what?

4) Last approach file a protest... While this will get results it also needs one spokesperson thus the retaliation for one and not a group.

The BIGGEST issue I think is that their is absolutely no way that we all will or do agree on any one method, thus no matter how you chosse to do things you will upset not only the protested but also the protested friends or even other people who just simply didn't like how you went about it. Thier is no winning in the situation and thus I find it VERY VERY fustrating... For me, I prefer that someone post the question on a public forum such as this one so that all can debate it. If at the end of the debate the driver feels he/she is legal then protest them if you feel differently. Hopefully if the driver realizes that it is illigal he/she changes whatever the issue is, if they don't change it then well, looks like they should be protested.

Hope ths helps in yuor quest, not sure what that is... care to enlighten us on your interests? Are they specific or just to keep us all busy :eclipsee_steering:

Raymond
 
Jeeez, Dave, why not put me on the spot!?

Research, research, research. Sad to say, that you have to pretty well informed in some cases. Is that guys car idling like crap because he's got a cam or because his idle circuit is all screwed up after his reprogramming? Sometimes the marque expert can walk up the row at grid, pointing to each of the cars within his expertise and give a thumbs up or down to each one!

So, the answer is in Robs response. A group can bring different levels of expertise together. Each person needs to have something to gain, and needs to be aware of what they can lose as well. And each person needs to do their job. If you are the expert, you cough up all the info you can. If you are the guy who's good with rules and writing, get ready to get swallowed by the SCCA protest system. And a group shouldn't have too many. Often lots of people want to jump in once the protest is lodged.."Why didn't you ask me?" Well, because other than moral support, they had little to offer. So it's a bit tricky to get the right group together.

I'm not convinced the entire group needs come from the same class either, as long as the non class members feel the poutcome is good for the region and the sport, and are willing to pay the price of involvement.

Raymond I disagree with your last comment.

......thus no matter how you chosse to do things you will upset not only the protested but also the protested friends or even other people who just simply didn't like how you went about it. Thier is no winning in the situation and thus I find it VERY VERY fustrating..[/b]
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To that I say:

  • Do your research.
  • Do your research. Be very certain.
  • Be reasonable, and don't monkey around. If you protest, protest for something substantial.
  • Don't be adversarial, it's quest for knowledge. Be fair and businesslike in all your dealings.
  • If you are wrong, walk over to the protested person, and shake his hand. Tell him you are sorry to put him through that, and you learned something, and you hope he respects that it was a quest for information. It takes a real man to do this, and might be uncomfortable, but it needs to be done.
  • If you are right, you have no reason to worry about losing a friend. If he was cheating, and holds it against you for calling him out, you have lost nothing. And if it's all a "misunderstanding", he'll be sure to get that point out in the public post haste.
  • Fear not retalliation. If you are clean, you have nothing to worry about. Any on track incidents won't be tolerated. Remember, if this guy was judged guilty, the last thing he needs is questionable driving charges, more points on his lic, and the further loss or respect from his fellow competitors.
 
Jake-

We can disagree ;) It is part of the process :) I do agree with what you said though, it should work exactly how you said it, however in MOST cases it doesn't. In the one protest I know you were heavly involved in the public view is that the Stewards made mistakes, and thus people were upset with the process, and much less with anything else. Thats just my opinion...

While I am not going to say I have a ton of experience, I have learned that their is no way that everyone will be happy, and you have to realize no matter what someone (be it yourself or someone else) is going to get upset.

Raymond "No matter how much research you do, this is not business for most, it is pleasure and people just want to have fun, and to some (no matter what the cost) you need to be in the front for it to be fun" Blethen
 
Hope ths helps in yuor quest, not sure what that is... care to enlighten us on your interests? Are they specific or just to keep us all busy[/b]
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We always talk about how it is necessary for us to self-police and that it is not the responsiblity of the region/club to ensure legality. I do wish there were some random checks for various items other than happening at a few marque events (such as the ARRC and IT Spec Festival). I also am starting to accept that other than a few minor things, that most likely won't happen. Because of all this, I feel it is important for people to become better educated on the process and lessen the mystery. At least to me, there are numerous things about the process that I do not understand, and because of this I am (for lack of better words) afraid to ever use this tool. If people are intimidated to use the tool to self-police for whatever reason, then that directly diminishes the whole self-policing process. I do not want to see many protests filed, but do believe having the knowledge is beneficial. Who knows, maybe I'll be the one protested? It is just as important for us to learn about the protest process in this situation.

I will also say there are one or two cars I question (not necessarily in ITB). I do not want my reasoning for not moving forward with a protest sometime in the future being "I don't understand the process".
 
I pretty much agree with what Jake said. I feel that, for the most part, an illegality found on a competitor's car is more than likely a difference of rules interpretation than a flagrant effort to cheat. Competitors and Tech inspectors are human (for the most part) and make judgement errors that aren't always consistant or correct. I've had tech inspectors tell me two different answers at two different events to the same question. Both had, what I could determine, perfectly legitimate answers to the question, but they were totally opposite.

Not to bang tech guys...geez, I don't want their job...but they are human. In most cases, someone who cheats, knowingly, is obvious. Small things may still be illegal, but they usually don't lead to a win or a loss. Not to use a missing washer bottle as an example, but...oh, heck, that's as good an example as any. But cams, intakes, suspension no-no's...that's flagrant and should be punished as such.

Philosophy 101...cheaters never really win, but they have a heck of a chance. B)

By the way, Greg, today is Ash Wednesday, dress accordingly.
 
I feel that, for the most part, an illegality found on a competitor's car is more than likely a difference of rules interpretation than a flagrant effort to cheat.[/b]
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I previously stated this, but in these situations I'm much more accepting of this. Things often can be worked out and not need a protest. This is not the situation when a protest would be warrented (IMO), at least not at first.
 
FWIW, I think most protests are just sour grapes, but I could be wrong. If the guy didn't beat me for the win, I don't see much reason for it other than non-technical reasons.

I've only protested twice in 13years.
1. Reckless driver hit me behind the rear wheel at top speed multiple times and totalled my car and nearly another. Had it on video from multiple cars, and ended up with a "too bad for you"

2. Rear-ended at mid-ohio hard at the keyhole (also behind the rear wheels). Not a pass, not a mistake, just used my car to slow for the turn - the ensuing wreck could have killed me. Tried to talk to the guy about it to understand what happened, and he was a total a$$ so I protested. Officials pretty much said the same thing: tough $hit.

3. I've been protested once too. I tried to get inside on a turn, had the door shut and locked em up trying to avoid. Made contact. Apologized after the race, and owned up at the protest. The guy and I talked about it later, and made nice.

I've had nothing but bad experiences with SCCA "officials" after my first fun few years, and as a result have taken the last few years off. I'm going to give it one more go and see if its worth the bother to come back. I hope so, though now I'm sure my car (as a Toyota) has little chance of competetiveness
 
I think one of the reasons we see so little in terms of mechanical protests is because the real power adders are tough to detect. It takes a real solid effort to REALLY understand why someone is faster. Think to your own races. There are backmarkers. They are out to have fun and may not be the best drivers or have the best equipment - but almost everyone thinks they are driving their stuff at 10/10ths. What do you think goes through the lappers heads as you whiz by them? They think YOU are cheating.

Chris makes an excellent point on most illegalities - but I just don't see those resulting in protests. It's easy to chat with someone about grey areas - its tough to walk up and tell someone you think their car is 'too fast' and you intend to protest. You have to have a lot of knowledge put together in little pieces to make the jump to paper.

The key to a solid "you are too fast" protest is the 'laundry list". You really have to put up to dig up this info. Single out the key items that make power. Cams, intake, TB, pistons, CR. If those things are all in spec...the other stuff just doesn't matter - does it?

We banter back and forth about the principle of legal and illegal items on this site all year - mostly because someone asks - but at the track - all most of us care about is that you don't have an illegal competitive advantage. The 'little things' that aren't right may be a window into the 'bigger things', but unless someone feels they are getting beaten by illegal HP, there usually isn't an issue.

Since these things happen so infrequently, nobody seems to be an expert at the Stewards level. To add to that, each protest provides it's own unique challenges. I think that each Region should have a 'white paper' written up on what to do and who to go to for a variety of scenarios. ABC Speed shop is willing to do tear down and shipping to Topeka, DEF Garage is willing to house impounded vehicles and parts under lock and key until Stewards decisions are made. A 'book' needs to be written and updated with history and proceedures so that a path can be taken. Maybe each Region should have a Protest-specific Cheif Steward. The expert - the go-to guy.

One Steward once told me that the majority of the time spend dealing with a full mechanical protest was spent figuring out what to do and HOW to do it. Eliminating these issues can make the process better for all.
 
Since these things happen so infrequently, nobody seems to be an expert at the Stewards level. To add to that, each protest provides it's own unique challenges. I think that each Region should have a 'white paper' written up on what to do and who to go to for a variety of scenarios. ABC Speed shop is willing to do tear down and shipping to Topeka, DEF Garage is willing to house impounded vehicles and parts under lock and key until Stewards decisions are made. A 'book' needs to be written and updated with history and proceedures so that a path can be taken. Maybe each Region should have a Protest-specific Cheif Steward. The expert - the go-to guy.[/b]
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This would be fantastic.

If the guy didn't beat me for the win, I don't see much reason for it other than non-technical reasons.[/b]
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I hear you and will say that I have thought this way too, but is that really the right way of thinking? Someone I race with is questionable in my mind. He is fast, but I'm never really worried about losing to him (although maybe I should be). Because of this I haven't really thought too hard about resolving that doubt by speaking to him or via a protest. Is that really the right attitude to have?
 
A 'book' needs to be written and updated with history and proceedures so that a path can be taken. Maybe each Region should have a Protest-specific Cheif Steward. The expert - the go-to guy.

One Steward once told me that the majority of the time spend dealing with a full mechanical protest was spent figuring out what to do and HOW to do it. Eliminating these issues can make the process better for all.
[/b]
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I casually made this suggestions after working a Spec Miata protest two years ago (or was it last year?). Stephen will remember this one: it's the one where the car was impounded to a well-known repair shop.

That was the first protest I'd ever worked as a tech person, and I noticed a lot of running around, "chicken-with-head-cut-off" kinda stuff, where we were discussing and debating what to do. Frankly, I was flabbergasted: this should have been figured out LONG ago. Had the procedures and policies been in place and decided well in advance, it would have taken 1/3 of the time that it did to come to the same conclusions.

I had asked a few key people afterwards if it wouldn't be a good idea to get together and debrief what was good and bad, but in the end I was (politely) brushed off.

Honestly, these things happen so infrequently that it's going to be tough to get anyone interested in being the go-to for such happenings...

Chris: gotcha bud. How was your head yesterday AM...? BTDT... ;)
 
Chris: gotcha bud. How was your head yesterday AM...? BTDT... ;)
[/quote]

Just fine, Greg. Drank nothing but one coke and bottled water yesterday. I learned a long time ago that the only real way to enjoy Mardis Gras was to be able to remember it.
 
The key to a solid "you are too fast" protest is the 'laundry list". You really have to put up to dig up this info. Single out the key items that make power. Cams, intake, TB, pistons, CR. If those things are all in spec...the other stuff just doesn't matter - does it?

..... Maybe each Region should have a Protest-specific Cheif Steward. The expert - the go-to guy.

One Steward once told me that the majority of the time spend dealing with a full mechanical protest was spent figuring out what to do and HOW to do it. Eliminating these issues can make the process better for all. [/b]
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Andy, I agree. In our protest, we were looking for those very items. Once the protest was public, people came up and said things like, "DId you protest the XYZ on that car???THATS for sure illegal". We didn't, not because we didn't know about it, but because we thought that it was a petty, non performance enhancing item. It wasn't central to our point, and it wouldn't yeild any information that we wanted.

On the Region protest guy idea, I think that it might be optimistic to have each region have such a person. Some regions, like the new Hawaii region, are really small. But Divisionally, it's a good idea. Now, I don't know much about the divisional stewards and their roles, but I do know that there is (was) a training program headed by a guy in the division that was devoted to the running and resolution of protests.

I imagine though, that the level of expertise varies thru the land.

Maybe some with more steward level info can chime in?
 
Maybe some with more steward level info can chime in?
[/b]
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To answer some of the questions... Yes their is a training, once a year. This year I for one was VERY unhappy as the training for the entire Northeast was going to be at the annual meeting in Buffalo where I would have had to basically go for an entire weekend... Because so many Stewards put up a fuss they are having another class at another location in NY. For me I can't afford the time and $$$ to race, nevermind go to the training. Yes it takes a weekend away from me and it cost money to attend the training not including travel expences such as gas and hotel. Many stewards (including myself probably this year) will depend on getting the knowledge from that meeting passed down to me.

As for what is reviewed at the training... the GCR and the entire protest processes including CFR's & RFA's. You run through several examples that to me are very simple, but when you have 30 seasoned Stewards in 1 room you would be amaized at the overwelmingly time consuming debates that occur. :bash_1_:

Back on topic... One thing that is handed out and reviewed is the proper process to follow IF thier is a mechanical protest. I don't have a copy of it infront of me as that stuff is all packed away, and I am at work, but I will try to find it and dig it out or better yet revisit this forum and post it when the 07 training is completed.

Here is a sample of something that is handed out and is relavant to this or the other forum that Dave started: (I do think this is from 06, and may be updated in 07, not sure)

"A Guide To Protests" http://www.offtotheraces.net/AGuidetoProtests.doc

Hope this helps, and I hope I am not "revealing" anything that would get me in trouble, personaly I think all of this is good information for any member attending one of our races.

Raymond " B) " Blethen
 
This would be fantastic.
I hear you and will say that I have thought this way too, but is that really the right way of thinking? Someone I race with is questionable in my mind. He is fast, but I'm never really worried about losing to him (although maybe I should be). Because of this I haven't really thought too hard about resolving that doubt by speaking to him or via a protest. Is that really the right attitude to have?
[/b]
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Well, I can't say what is "right", but can only speak to why I am there.
I understand that ego is a huge part of racing. In my case I'm there because I love to build and tune, and love driving my car. I'm much more interested in mixing it up good than I am being first, or being second to somebody that cheated, so I guess everybody's answer may be different (besides, beating somebody you think is a cheater is satisfying too). If somebody protests me for something stupid like a speaker wire or missing washer bottle cap, so be it. They can DQ me every race if it feeds their little egos - I just want to race and enjoy my machine :) - Would NASA be a better home for me?
 
- Would NASA be a better home for me?
[/b]
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No I think that the majority will enjoy your competition at the track even if they type up something differnt on the web... The only thing that upsets most are things that actually give you a performance advantage.

Raymond
 
If somebody protests me for something stupid like a speaker wire or missing washer bottle cap, so be it. They can DQ me every race if it feeds their little egos - I just want to race and enjoy my machine[/b]
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This thread wasn't about those types of things. I could care less about any of those trivial items, although this year I did keep my rear speakers installed, washer bottle, and horn. :D
 
Well, I can't say what is "right", but can only speak to why I am there.
I understand that ego is a huge part of racing. In my case I'm there because I love to build and tune, and love driving my car. I'm much more interested in mixing it up good than I am being first, or being second to somebody that cheated, so I guess everybody's answer may be different (besides, beating somebody you think is a cheater is satisfying too). If somebody protests me for something stupid like a speaker wire or missing washer bottle cap, so be it. They can DQ me every race if it feeds their little egos - I just want to race and enjoy my machine :) - Would NASA be a better home for me? [/b]
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You love to build and tune and drive. Like most here, I suspect.

And I presume that you read the rulebook, and try to find ways within it to make your car as fast as possible.

Now, suppose you race against a guy, and he KILLS you on the straights, but you are ALL over him in the corners. Sadly, he gets so far ahead you can't quite get him under braking, and at the end of the race, you finish second to his first....turning lap times slower than you are capable of. You've done your homework, you KNOW your engine puts out within a hp what the pro motors do, and you just got slaughtered by power. Just for giggles, (and I actually did this once) you call your pal the best pro builder in the country, and inquire how such a thing could happen. Well, it turns out that the guy you are talking about actually bought a cam and some lightweight hi comp pistons form your pal, but said he was using them in a class that you know he doesn't race with.

So.......

You just got beaten by a guy who decided that he didn't respect you, and the rest of his "friends" enough to do the same work you did to get to the front, and was fine taking the win with a highly suspect engine.

THATs what protests are for...not speaker wires.

I imagine NASA has guys who skirt the rules, just like SCCA, EMRA, PCA, NASCAR, et al.
 
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