Kinda considering a 92-96 E36 325 for a next race car (have a fully prepped ITA car now). Is this a good choice or is there better? Would it be better to run a 328? or? If I build a new one, it will be an E36 something, but not sure which one, or what class, or what years to get/avoid.... advice?
E36 thoughts? (man!, not much traffic here)...
- Thread starter Spinnetti
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Z3_GoCar
New member
One thing to remember about the M-50 motored 325 is that the intake manifold is the envy of all the later M/S-52 motors. In the case of the S-52, a M-50 manifold swap will gain ~15-20hp alone. The later manifolds have narrower runners, and because they're ABS plastic can't be port matched, so they definetly don't have the gains that the M-50's see. So, if you found a good doner go for it.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Is the later manifold on the same spec line as the earlier M50?? If so, i presume the M50 motor is inferior to the later motor, but the earlier manifold superior?
JeffYoung
New member
I'll let the BMW guys confirm, but I think that is the case. The M50 and S50 were the 2.5 OBDI and 3.0 OBDI motors that went in the early E36 325s and the 95 M3. The M52 was an OBDII 2.5 and the S52 OBDII 3.2 in the M3/Roadster/Coupe.
I THINK all of the E36 325s are on the same spec line, allowing use of the early manifold on all cars.
I THINK all of the E36 325s are on the same spec line, allowing use of the early manifold on all cars.
A "manifold" is an "assembly...?"
Bzzzt. Wrong.
"Any updated/backdated components shall be substituted as a complete assembly (engine long block, transmission/transaxle, induction system, differential/axle housing)..." (2008 GCR, emphasis mine)
If the rest of the "induction system" is IDENTICAL, then you're OK, but that seems pretty unlikely in this case. You can use the entire OBDI sytem or the entire OBDII system (ignoring the detail distinctions between/among versions for the sake of this argument) but you cannot cherry pick individual parts.
K
Bzzzt. Wrong.
"Any updated/backdated components shall be substituted as a complete assembly (engine long block, transmission/transaxle, induction system, differential/axle housing)..." (2008 GCR, emphasis mine)
If the rest of the "induction system" is IDENTICAL, then you're OK, but that seems pretty unlikely in this case. You can use the entire OBDI sytem or the entire OBDII system (ignoring the detail distinctions between/among versions for the sake of this argument) but you cannot cherry pick individual parts.
K
dj10
New member
If you have a 328, Z3 you better NOT have a M50 Manifold!
JeffYoung
New member
Dan, if I wasn't clear, I meant 325s only.
Kirk, I agree -- I am assuming (perhaps wrongly) that the entire OBDI induction system including the manifold (the plenum, etc.) would transfer over. In fact, I suspect it HAS to to use the M50 manifold. Since ECU is now free, shouldn't be an OBDI/II issue with the rest of the harness, etc.
Kirk, I agree -- I am assuming (perhaps wrongly) that the entire OBDI induction system including the manifold (the plenum, etc.) would transfer over. In fact, I suspect it HAS to to use the M50 manifold. Since ECU is now free, shouldn't be an OBDI/II issue with the rest of the harness, etc.
buldogge
New member
All the E36 325 in ITS/ITR are OBDI and ALL have the same manifold...
The M50NV (non-VANOS) is 1992 only
The M50TU is the VANOS model from 1993-1995
*The above reside on the same spec-line*
The M52 is the 2.8l OBDII from 1996-1999
The S50 is the OBDI '95 M3 3.0l
The S52 is the OBDII 96-99 M3 3.2l
The M52TU is the E46 2.5l (99-00 323)
The M52B28 is the E46/Z3 2.8l
The M54 is the E46/Z3 3.0l
ALL of these are OBDII and Double VANOS
FWIW...The gains are not 15-20hp when swapping on an OBDII car...those are Dinan/Conforti type numbers for sure...there is a gain of course...but to realize greater gains requires larger injectors and a larger HFM (MAF) neither of which woulkd be IT legal anyway.
This is the exact reason I said the '95 M3 should be allowed in ITR...1995 ONLY uses the same 17.5# injectors as the 325's and the same 3" MAF (as does the 96-99 M3 FWIW). With the 17.5# injectors and no MAF swap the power differences will be minimal... .5l greater capacity and slightly hotter cams.
The M50NV (non-VANOS) is 1992 only
The M50TU is the VANOS model from 1993-1995
*The above reside on the same spec-line*
The M52 is the 2.8l OBDII from 1996-1999
The S50 is the OBDI '95 M3 3.0l
The S52 is the OBDII 96-99 M3 3.2l
The M52TU is the E46 2.5l (99-00 323)
The M52B28 is the E46/Z3 2.8l
The M54 is the E46/Z3 3.0l
ALL of these are OBDII and Double VANOS
FWIW...The gains are not 15-20hp when swapping on an OBDII car...those are Dinan/Conforti type numbers for sure...there is a gain of course...but to realize greater gains requires larger injectors and a larger HFM (MAF) neither of which woulkd be IT legal anyway.
This is the exact reason I said the '95 M3 should be allowed in ITR...1995 ONLY uses the same 17.5# injectors as the 325's and the same 3" MAF (as does the 96-99 M3 FWIW). With the 17.5# injectors and no MAF swap the power differences will be minimal... .5l greater capacity and slightly hotter cams.
JoshS
New member
Oh, so close! Until you got to 1999 you were doing great.
M52B28: E36 2.8L from '96-'99 E36 328i and '97-'98 Z3 2.8.
M52tuB25: E46 323i and '99+ Z3 2.3
M52tuB28: E46 328i and '99+ Z3 2.8
M54B25: E46 325i and Z3 2.5i
M54B30: E46 330i and Z3 3.0i
buldogge
New member
Looks to me like we're in agreement...
I just left out some of the Z3's...which is kinda funny given I'm an MCoupe guy...or maybe that's just it...MCoupe snobbery!
I just left out some of the Z3's...which is kinda funny given I'm an MCoupe guy...or maybe that's just it...MCoupe snobbery!
Z3_GoCar
New member
Alright Dan, if you want the M-50 manifold sitting on my garage floor, I'll sell it to you
JoshS
New member
Looks to me like we're in agreement...
I just left out some of the Z3's...which is kinda funny given I'm an MCoupe guy...or maybe that's just it...MCoupe snobbery!
The real correction wasn't the Z3s, it was that the M52B28 was an E46 motor ... it was really an E36 motor.
I was just including the Z3s for completeness, especially because a lot of people don't realize that they have both E36 and E46 engines.
buldogge
New member
I unfortunately simply left the TU out after the M52 in the second listing as I was following the M52TU 2.5l.
To clarify...M52B28 is E36 Single VANOS 2.8l and M52TUB28 is E46 Double VANOS 2.8l
Now we've have officially bored everyone...
To clarify...M52B28 is E36 Single VANOS 2.8l and M52TUB28 is E46 Double VANOS 2.8l
Now we've have officially bored everyone...
dj10
New member
Alright Dan, if you want the M-50 manifold sitting on my garage floor, I'll sell it to you
Thank you any way James, last time I looked I had one.
I could use 2 front doors, bumper cover, front fender w/ liners and a trunk lid and some more money.
BTW, I have a 328 manifold I'll sell you.
Z3_GoCar
New member
Thank you any way James, last time I looked I had one.
BTW, I have a 328 manifold I'll sell you.
I've got one of those too. The throttle housing on it is wrong though. I think the one on the M-50 is correct because it should look like the attached housing. The one that came with the M-52 manifold doesn't have the rod assembly. Both have the Delorto markings and BMW symbol so they're both stock to some BMW. Sorry about the money part, I definetly can relate there
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chuck baader
New member
What no one seems to address is the cost of running S vs. A. Figure about 4-5 times the expense. Gas, TIRES, BRAKES, and parts in general are much more expensive. Then, if you have the dreaded money shift, wow
...that can be very expensive if you do not do your own engine work. In addition, the many of the front runners are running Motec engine management to the tune of around 6k. After all this, you get to run about 2 1/2 seconds faster than the fast A cars at Road Atlanta and about 1/2 second at RR. Chuck
...that can be very expensive if you do not do your own engine work. In addition, the many of the front runners are running Motec engine management to the tune of around 6k. After all this, you get to run about 2 1/2 seconds faster than the fast A cars at Road Atlanta and about 1/2 second at RR. ChuckAnd yet it was classed in ITR based on the E36 (single VANOS) numbers.
JoshS
New member
I wasn't involved, but I don't think that's true.
Looks to me like 193hp (double vanos engine) * 1.3 (30% multiplier) * 11.25 - 25lbs adjuster (no idea why, the other Z3s got -50 lbs) comes out to 2798, rounded to 2800, which is the listed weight.
If I start with 189hp (single vanos engine) I can't come up with any math that comes out to 2800.
I think I got lost......
I got lost a bit in the spec line one-upsmanship So, lets say I want to run ITS (apply same logic to ITR).
> Is there a best year of the E36? e.g. 94 better than 92?
> Am I better off with a 325 or 328? (competitiveness, parts cost, other?)
> Is a 4dr better or worse than a 2dr?
325s are fairly falling off the trees here (92 4 doors especially), so getting a high mileage example that is fairly straight is cheap enough, but which one?
I got lost a bit in the spec line one-upsmanship So, lets say I want to run ITS (apply same logic to ITR).
> Is there a best year of the E36? e.g. 94 better than 92?
> Am I better off with a 325 or 328? (competitiveness, parts cost, other?)
> Is a 4dr better or worse than a 2dr?
325s are fairly falling off the trees here (92 4 doors especially), so getting a high mileage example that is fairly straight is cheap enough, but which one?