Enduro at the ARRC

I'd like to see a greater level of importance restored to the enduro. I ran it back in 2000, when it was supposed to be a 3 hr., and due to other considerations was reduced to a 2hr. Unfortunately, the decision was made after the start of the race, and I ended up with about 30 minutes of track time after the driver change.

I'd like to see it at 3 hours or more, just like the GOD (good ole days!).

It is a fun race, which I highly recommend. Can't wait to get back there.
 
For those that like to plan ahead, my current thought is to make the 2007 Enduro a two hour & fifteen minute race (called the "Deuce and a Quarter"), two 4-minute pit stops required, with the entry fee the same as last year ($350 regardless of how many drivers). Fifty (50) minute qualifying session on Sunday morning that could be split into two sessions if the event is oversubscribed. We'll be running the FE (FSCCA) "National Championship" race right after lunch on Sunday and the Enduro will finish things up. We're currently in negotiations regarding the other "filler" race on Sunday, but last year's Pro Shootout and Miata Madness are toast. The cost of putting on that weekend and the track limit of 67 cars per session (which HAS been bumped to 75 in the past but requires Chief Stewar approval) require that we have a third race on Sunday.

I understand some people would like a longer race, but it's the end of a long weekend for our workers and we need to take care of them as well.

BK
 
I understand some people would like a longer race, but it's the end of a long weekend for our workers and we need to take care of them as well.
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Butch, thanks for the heads up and all the work the ATL does with the ARRC.

My question: What diff does it make to have 2 races after lunch on Sunday vs. 1 race after lunch on Sunday, if the total time used is still 3 or 4 hours?

Just trying to figure out how it helps the workers....err....marshalls!
 
Butch,

A little feedback from someone who runs the ARRC Enduro almost every year:

1) Unless there is no possible way to pull it off, the vast majority of the racers would rather have a very crowded 50 minute session for qualifying than to have the group split so that you only get 25 minutes, even if is is less crowded. A lot of us use the co-driver seat as a thank you to a friend or something like that and most of the session is used for them to get seat time. A shorter session makes for a tough decision on how much time the co-driver gets, as the "faster" driver has to get some laps in to make sure to avoid the risk of getting bumped out of the field. Plus it is nice to get a chance to practice a full pit stop on pit lane, but wasting 4-5 minutes of a 25 minute session is foolish.

2) If the session MUST be split, PLEASE let the ITA Miatas qualify with the other ITA cars, and not force us to run in a different session with all the SMs, which has happened in the past. What if someone oils down the track halfway through the first of the 2 sessions and the track is slower, or it rains, or whatever? It could really screw up the competition within ITA, and that would suck.

Thanks for all your hard work, see you this weekend during the PDX for sure.
 
This probably falls under the "more that you wanted to know" category, but here goes:

What we're actually looking at is THREE races (i.e. - "opportunities to generate entry fees and distribute the weekend costs so the IT cars don't have to carry the entire load") after lunch on Sunday: two 20-lap Sprint races and an Enduro. In 2006 we had the ProShootout for wings & things, the Miata Madness, and a two hour Enduro, but neither the Pro Shootout nor Miata Madness generated enough entries to justify continuing them this year (16 & 19 cars respectively). Enterprises has agreed to sponsor one of our parties that weekend, and part of that deal is they will get their own Championship race in 2007. We're expecting 30+ of them to show up, but since it appears they are making the numbers to be invited to the Runoffs in Holy Topeka in 2008, this will likely be the last year FE will be eligible to run at the ARRC. What we're currently discussing is another group that will "guarantee" an additional 30+ entries (which is about $5K to the bottom line) that will replace the Madness race from 2006.

Due to local ordinance we cannot run unmuffled engines from 10:00 AM - 12:30 PM on Sundays at Road Atlanta, so the earliest we can reasonably start a race is 12:45. We also like to schedule AT LEAST 45 minutes for Enduro qualifying because that allows us split that session into two 20-minute sessions if needed to due to oversubscription for the Enduro. Two 20-minute "sprint" qualifiers and a 45-minute Enduro qualifier pretty much kill the 8:15-9:50 morning slot. Figuring Sprint Race #1 (FE in 2007) runs 12:45 - 1:30 and Sprint Race #2 runs 1:45 - 2:30 (allowing for pace laps, victory laps, and clean up between races), the Enduro will get the green at 2:45 and end up right at 5:00. Since the workers (and that's not just corner workers, but Grid, Pit Road, Tech, Sound Control, T&S, the Stewards, etc. - it takes about 150 people to put on a race at Road Atlanta) will have been there since Friday morning (Thursday in some cases), I REALLY can't ask them to stay past 5:00 on a Sunday afternoon!

Now if we could find a group that will put on a 50+ car Sprint race on Sunday and/or someone is willing to sponsor the Enduro to the tune of $5K, we could talk about tossing out the second Sprint race and going back to a three-hour Enduro for 2008.

And while you may well have been kidding, Steve, the Saturday night Enduro will not happen for a number of reasons. The primary one is the cost of auxillary lighting (we don't have QUITE the budget the Petit has :P ), but there's also the safety factor. I wasn't there for the last one, but racing in the dark and RAIN is hazardous to both participants AND workers. Apparently one of our workers was responding to the pile-up in Turn 12 (caused by visibility and judgement issues), slipped on a wet tire and broke an ankle. I also understand a car slid off (in the rain) at the exit of Turn One in the dark and wasn't found until the next morning, but that might be urban legend.

BK
 
Now if we could find a group that will put on a 50+ car Sprint race on Sunday and/or someone is willing to sponsor the Enduro to the tune of $5K, we could talk about tossing out the second Sprint race and going back to a three-hour Enduro for 2008.
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What is the average car count for the enduro? Could that $5K be spread out and recouped, in part or in full, by the entry fee?

If the average car count is 60 cars, then an additional $75 on the entry would make up most of the shortfall. And the more cars entered (or potentially entered), the lower the entry.

Using your schedule, Butch, the enduro could run from 1:45 - 4:45 and all would be right with the world. I may even be able to get my wife to postpone our wedding anniversary!
 
We've been right at the track limit for a long time. In 2003 or so we actually ran two two-hour Enduros and had 40 or so cars in the "big car" class and about 25-30 in the "small car" class.

Is the extra 45 minutes of track time worth the $75 to enough people that we'll be able to continue to fully subscribe this event? Hell, let's just make it a flat $100 more (or $450 total) and make the morning qualifier two 30-minute sessions instead of one 45-minute session. Depending on feedback here we could implement such a plan for 2008 and, if we're not able to secure a deal on Sunday Sprint race #2, maybe even do it for 2007. In the past people have screamed whenever we've raised the entry fees, but I'm willing to let the marketplace decide.

And RacerBowie, duly noted on your request. The Stewards are the ones that make that decision but we can certainly request/suggest that they put the ITA Miatas in the group with ITA rather than SM (particularly in light of the ongoing war in the "June FasTrack" thread :blink: ).

BK
 
Is it at all possible to put the FE qualifying on a different day? Then you could run their championship race and enduro qualifying in the morning, followed by two 2 hour enduro's in the afternoon. If there was two enduro's instead of just one, do you think more people would sign up for them? Like, enough to off set the loss of the 2nd sprint race (Miata Madness)? I know for me last year in our little, slow ITC car, it got a little scary at times against some of those bigger, much faster cars. (How many times did that Viper lap me?) I know that scares off some of the ITC and ITB guys from running it. It's a huge field with a very busy track and huge differences in speed.

Just an idea.
 
The FE cars will qualify with the other Wings & Things on Friday, they are off on Saturday, then they get a warm-up Sunday morning before racing first thing after lunch (which was my deal with Erik). I backed out of my promise to give them their own race last year to accommodate the (relatively) last minute change we made for you guys, so I'm not going to ask him to move their race to Sunday morning this year.

Let me know what you think about this plan however. Remember we're talking about 2008, but it COULD be implemented for 2007 if our other deal doesn't pan out:

. Two 90-minute Enduros on Sunday, one required pit stop
. Enduro A would be "small" cars (ITU, ASM, SSB, ITB, ITC, SRX, etc.)
. Enduro B would be "big" cars (ITO, ITR, ITS, ITA, IT7)
. swap the order each year so everybody gets hosed equally on the late departure
. $300 entry fee (down from $350)
. 30-minute qualifier for each group on Sunday morning

I want to keep the option of a sprint race on Sunday because (1) it breaks up the afternoon for the workers and (2) it gives us some flexibility in marketing the event to potential sponsors (i.e. - we've got some deals cooking and I don't want to close any doors).

So the question is, would you rather run a shorter Enduro with fewer cars and less speed discrepancy (for a lower entry fee) or is having a 2+ hour race more important even if some of you have to get sent home if the event is oversubscribed?

Open dialog is good thing...
 
Butch, I'm sure there are lots of people like me me who are not as serious about the Enduro as some but would run it for the fun and experience (as I used to do) for a "reasonable" price. At 2 hours or 2:15 it is easily done solo but the fee structure certainly does not favor it. Yea, I know the track time per dollar is a good deal but $350 is $350. I bet you'd get a bunch more entries if solo [small s] drivers could add the Enduro for, say, $200-250. Or maybe you are intentionally trying to weed the non-serious drivers out? And some solo drivers may reason that if they are not going to do the Enduro because of the fee, it is not worth coming to the ARRC at all just to do the sprint race.
 
Damned if we do, damned if we don't. For years we had one fee for the Enduro, then a surcharge ranging from $75 to $125 for the second driver. I/we got complaints about that as well.

The flat fee is much easier for the Registrars and the car gets the same amount of track time regardless of how many drivers are involved. It also encourages owner/drivers to reward hard-working crew members by letting them get some seat time in a shared ride. And by splitting the cost with a co-driver, you still get (at least) 40 minutes of racing time.

And the entry fees are roughly based on the amount of track time offered per dollar while still making enough to make the event feasible for the region. It doesn't work out even between SARRC, Nationals, Pro-IT and Enduros, but if you'll run the numbers (and I HAVE) the Enduro cars (both the ARRC and ECR) get the best deal on a dollars/minute ratio.

Sorry, the flat fee stays...
 
I for one like the flat fee model better than the added fee for a second driver, so you won't get any complaints on that from me!

As for my personal feelings, I will ALWAYS vote for the longest enduro possible, but I am a little touched like that. If more people are willing to enter 2 shorter enduros then that sounds like it is best for the region.

I know I have said it, but I think it needs to be repeated: Atlanta Region as a whole and Butch personally have been busting their collective butts over the past couple of years trying to make things better for the racers. It got off to a rocky start with some registration issues last year, but the fruits of all the labor are REALLY showing this year. I have never been to an event that was easier on the racers than the March National/Pro IT. Registration was seemingly open 24/7 starting THURSDAY for an event that didn't officially start until Saturday morning. Then there was a roving annual tech person throughout the day Friday during the test day, making the usual "first event of the season" line at tech almost non-existant. Add to that the really cheap price on the PDX Sunday morning ($20 for workers and $100 for non-workers if it doesn't fill with workers for 2 20 minute sessions) and you have a recipe for a GREAT event.

I'll be up there this afternoon for the 2nd Road Atlanta race of the season, one I wasn't planning to run this year. But the first one went so well (both on the track with 2 wins and off the track with things running so smoothly) that I added it to my schedule. I am sure things will be great again, and my wife can't wait to drive her street car in the PDX!
 
And while you may well have been kidding, Steve, the Saturday night Enduro will not happen for a number of reasons. The primary one is the cost of auxillary lighting (we don't have QUITE the budget the Petit has :P ), but there's also the safety factor. I wasn't there for the last one, but racing in the dark and RAIN is hazardous to both participants AND workers. Apparently one of our workers was responding to the pile-up in Turn 12 (caused by visibility and judgement issues), slipped on a wet tire and broke an ankle. I also understand a car slid off (in the rain) at the exit of Turn One in the dark and wasn't found until the next morning, but that might be urban legend.
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Been there, done that - have the sweatshirt! We went to the ARRC that year specifically because of the night racing. We love night racing. Since then we've done six of the Sebring 12-Hours and six of the Petit LeMans events. Unfortunately, the rain was awful. That event soon became "Noah's ARRC". Even though we spent most of the weekend soaked to the skin, the Atlanta Region did a great of taking care of the flaggers.

Keep in mind, the night enduro was run before any changes to Road Atlanta had been made. It included the famous "Dip", the bridge as an apex marker at 11, and the foot bridge at turn 1 still existed. It was the only event we made before the course was changed.

We were flagging at turn 1 for the night enduro. (Or rather, I was flagging, Will was cross-track safety.) We had four different cars in the gravel trap drivers left, at different times. We had a wonderful EV guy. He drove a 4-wheel Jeep (I wish I could remember his name). He was fabulous and the "clean and jerk". The last car in the trap was a Z-car. Shortly after he landed there, he had a conversation with the flag chief - who sent him to talk to the chief steward and the race was called in the next few minutes. The conditions were terrible for everyone. Who would have expected 6" of rain in four days? All cars which exited the course at turn 1 were retrieved prior to the end of the session. Any tales of a car left out overnight are incorrect.

And, just to clarify, the pile-up in turn 12 was during the ITC sprint race, not the night enduro. Watching the cars come down the hill and impact the wall at the base of the tower like they were being shot out of a cannon was frightening indeed. I will probably never forget that sight. Again, we were at turn 1 while all the mayhem was going on. The impetus for the pileup was the blasted rain which had started up again.

We went back to the ARRC in 1999 and had another wonderful time. I'm glad the Petit LeMans is at Road Atlanta, because we get to renew friendships there each year. I just wish I had enough vacation to do both events!

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. :D

Kelley Huxtable
DMVR
"PLAY SAFE"
 
How well I remember the pileup in ITC. Our driver was leading and the first one into the tires. He said later that all he could think about going in was the the Tom Cruise quote, "This is gonna hurt!" He had a broken collar bone and fractured ribs, and the car was destroyed. He was healed with a new car by the next March and has since won 4 more ARRC championships before retiring and selling the car this year. As always, it was the required safety equipment, the corner workers, the medical staff, and the ARRC officials that each had a part in saving his, and everyone's, life. Watching someone you consider a great friend die in front of your helpless eyes only to find that he is realatively okay is a sensation I don't wish to relive.
 
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