Enduro Rules- 1st NEDiv, then the world!

S

ShelbyRacer

New member
Sorry for the late notice on this, but it has just kind of been morphed...

At the NEDiv Round Table, we were originally suppposed to have a session on Enduro prep. While it was my intent to have this to hopefully introduce more people to this type of racing, the session has recently taken on a life of its own. It doesn't address that original intent (although one-on-one recruiting is still allowed and a small Enduro Prep session may still happen), but this new session looks to be awesome.

This year at the National Convention, there was some discussion in various sessions about adding rules to the GCR to govern Enduro events. At several of the Enduro Committee sessions at NEDiv Conventions, several non-officials (read: drivers, crew, etc.) have taken part in discussions, and I personally feel that at the end of each eeting, the rules are more streamlined and easier to implement. I feel this is a direct result of participants and officials sharing feelings in a VERY open forum.

Yes, I have a point, and here it is:

At the Round Table, we will be having a session titled, 'Enduro Rules - Recommended Practices & GCR Requirements'. This session will be hosted by 4 gents that have some familiarity with the topic: John Walsh, Chuck Allard, Brian Mushnick, and Roy Bergeman. The idea here is simple- share your ideas, hopes, fears, concerns, threats (well, hopefully not threats), etc. in an effort to help all sides understand Enduro specific issues and how to properly address them. In addition to helping the growing NEDiv Enduro program, I believe that John and the others would like to gather suggestions and info to be used to help shape a National rule set should one develop.

Registration Info can be found at www.nescca.com

This session will follow a Tech Open Forum and it precedes the Club Racing Town Hall, so please consider coming out for the day. This particular session is scheduled at 3 o'clock or so if I remember.

Hope to see a few of you there!
 
I'm pretty confident that I'd support anything that Walsh came up with. He pretty much defines "No BS."

I think it would be VERY helpful to have one set of rules governing pit stop procedures, safety requirements, fuel rigs, etc. for the long races sanctioned by SCCA. I think it imposes certain risks when people have to re-learn all of the rules when they go from Summit, to Homestead, to VIR. I personally worry that, even when I read the supps and write stuff down, I'll screw up and fall afoul of some rule because I got it in my head that it was a particular way, based on a different race.

K
 
I agree Kirk from my brief contact with John. He gets it. I have worked closely with Brian and he defines no BS, so I hope we are in good hands. My worry is one set of rules to fit different kinds of enduros. I am sure that the drivers that run summit or the other long enduros are pretty well prepared. We run one at NHIS that started as a three hour and is going to six this year. The entrants are a mix of some who have enduro experience and most who are just trying this for the first or time. I would not want to see a rule set that was a barrier to sprint racers trying to step up to long races.
 
That's definately a consideration, and a sticking point for me. I've been involved in more than one conversation about pit rules :bash_1_: and the question always is, how do you make it a benefit to be good at pit stops while not make it a barrier to novices? Without going into my own platform and beliefs (aren't you lucky) I would simply say that I've learned a lot from those discussions, and the more people involved, the more we all can benefit. I trust the guys involved completely also, but I still want to encourage as many participants as possible to get into the process. Hell, they usually get me to shut up long enough to learn something, so they must be doing something right :)
 
This is very much a "work in progress", recently hatched by people in NEDiv who like enduros. The goal is to come up with a set of 'minimum safety & operations standards' that will not infringe on any Region's or Division's creativity in planning events or writing Supps. Rules writers love to write rules, and this project could be considered a preemptive strike at those who could write too restrictive a rules set...not out of malice, but out of a lack of knowledge.

This is, at present, a very 'ad hoc' effort. It has no 'standing' within NEDiv, but that might change. Input will be collected from racing Regions, Stewards, drivers and other participants over the next few months, organized in some fashion, get some blessing within our Division and then likely forwarded to Topeka.

Roy Bergman is a Nat'l Chief Steward, BOD member from WNY and the Administrator of the NESCCA Enduro Series. Chuck Allard is a current active racer, former R.E. / current Asst. R.E. of WDC Region and a driving force behind DC Region's enduro program for decades. Brian Mushnick is NER's Competition Board Chair, a former R.E. (? he posts here...he'll correct that as necessary) and a certified enduro-rat. Walsh (me) is a former Competition Board Chair & BOD member from FLR, current FLR BOD Secretary, past Reg'l & Nat'l Race Chair, current active racer in SRF, IT, SS, SM & vintage, and another certified enduro-rat. We all run into each other (figuratively) at enduros from Florida to Canada, from 90 min. events to 24-hour races.

We don't have an 'agenda', we just don't want to suddenly find out that there is a new Nat'l enduro rules set that screws up our fun. Hopefully, the same process is starting in other Divisions, too.

Besides, the ice racing season has sucked (water not hard enough), and we've got nothing better to do.
 
Rule of thumb: Simpler is better. Any rule that requires lots of explanation as to why it makes sense, probably doesn't. Each should be sensible "at its face."

Example of one that moves from a perfectly reasonable first principle but goes sideways in my opinion: NASA's effort to hobble the "pro teams" by making it illegal to change more than one tire in the hot pits. I don't see how encouraging people to drive through pit lane and the paddock - full of kids, wives, food, campers, trailers, and other crap - to do a tire change, makes for a safer environment. They then make it illegal to go to the paddock to FUEL - where we are always moving gas around at sprint races.

NASA also devotes what seems like an entire page in the rules to helmets in the pit lane. Overkill.

Some SCCA events (e.g., Summit 12) allow overhead fuel rigs which I think are an example of making the transition to endurance events much more expensive. Refueling hardware should be the limiting factor on stops, rather than silly artificial minimum times.

Food for thought...

K
 
Rule of thumb: Simpler is better. Any rule that requires lots of explanation as to why it makes sense, probably doesn't. Each should be sensible "at its face."

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Absolutely. Our interest at this point is to help 'steer' a future Nat'l rules set toward simplicity. Address 'safety' issues with specific, concise language. Include 'recommended operational practices' or 'items an event's Supps should address', as the GCR doesn't address enduro-specific issues like pit stops under various flag conditions, restarts, etc.

We don't feel that a Nat'l rules & recommendations set should tell a Region how to write their Supps, but simply point out areas that should be addressed in those Supps.

All on board with you, Kirk...until...(CLANK)...you fell off the rails:

Some SCCA events (e.g., Summit 12) allow overhead fuel rigs which I think are an example of making the transition to endurance events much more expensive. Refueling hardware should be the limiting factor on stops, rather than silly artificial minimum times. [/b]
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I'm laughing, 'cuz that's the trap that rules-writers can fall into. The 'fuel rigs' thing, and the other sanctioning bodies practices, are 'competition' issues. That should be the business of the individual Regions, or the series, that holds the event, NOT issues that should be addressed in a Nat'l rules set. As long as there is a level of safety to keep our insurance provider happy, and operational practices in place to address enduro situations that aren't addressed in the GCR, then it should be up to the individual Regions and their competitors & officials to write their own rules. "Less is more".
 
Yeah - i did that math in my head.

By defining a minimum set of standards, you don't address what are arguably the biggest issues - the result of adding other silly stuff on TOP of some basic list. Oh well. The presence of ANY standard that crosses regions is a step in the right direction.

K
 
-The faster Walsh
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Har-har: "The faster Walsh". Must be hallucinating down there.

You guys coming back to enduro-land soon ? The Nissan is past it's 'sell-by' date in Showroom Stock, so we've joined the Spec Miata world for enduros (cuz that's where all the competition is, anyway). Be nice to see you guys running long races again.


The smarter & more handsome Walsh
 
John is the man for the job.

Just keep him away from the Jell-O shots.

-The faster Walsh
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John, are you going to be writing specs around Jell-O now as well? Just want to make sure in case I have to write up a supp covering the proper use of the green ones and the red ones.


(signed)
The Purveyor Of Things Jell-O
 
In the SEDIV our enduro series requires minimum 5 minute pit stops. I understand the rule is there for safety reasons, and I don't totally disagree with it in terms of safety. What it does is pretty much eliminate the pit stop as a strategic factor, since in theory everyone will have the same length stop.
In theory, it means nobody does any rushing, and its safer.

In theory.

The reality is that pretty much everyone rushes anyway. Then they sit there for 2.5 minutes waiting for the 5 minutes to expire... Car baking, driver baking, brakes baking... You get the picture.

Its another one of those things that works in theory but not in reality.

So I agree with Kirk. You write strict rules to make the stops as safe as possible, but eliminate the minimum stop time stuff. You also need to keep it simple, so teams don't need fuel rigs and dry break systems in order to compete.

So suggestions...
1. A minimum of 2 refuelers required. Both fully suited/helmeted. One armed with a 10lb extinguisher.
2. Overflow catch pans required.
3. Driver must be out of the car and NO WORK being done during refueling.
4. Maximum number of crew that can be over the wall at any given time (I think 4 is a good number) NOT including drivers (2).
5. Low pit lane speed limit (35mph?). Monitored with a radar gun (they really arent that expensive).

Dump cans only.
Spills = a stop and go penalty.
No minimum stop times.

This keeps the stops safe and rewards doing them well. Which should be a part of endurance racing IMO.

I've been on 2 separate VIR 13 hour teams the past 2 years. Both worked hard on good pit stops, both HAD good pit stops, and not surprisingly both did well on the track.
Also not surprisingly the cars that are blisteringly fast on the track but keep taking 10 minute pit stops don't do well.
 
Pits open or closed during FCY? I tend to think that "open" is simpler, injects another interesting enduro-like quality to a race, and doesn't create unduly dangerous conditions.

Don't limit the amount of gas that can be added (e.g., NASA 2 ea. 5-gallon cans) - unreasonable penalty to the cars with bigger tanks, when they already pay a price by having slow cans.

K
 
Be very very careful.

We are talking about minimum standards that would be a starting point for supps for an event and could be a future GCR standard. It is pretty easy to write a rule that you think is understandable only to find the interpretation is not what you attended. It happen so you write a little different next year. Oh well. If this happens at a GCR level however it become a lot harder to fix.

A reasonable pit lane speed limit varies track to track. 35 mph may be right for Lime Rock but is silly at NHIS with it’s 60 foot wide 1500 foot long pit lane.

Why would the guy standing “fire watch” need full Nomex. The pit workers don’t even have that.

The Pit being open on a FCY is a competition thing not a safety thing. Should not be part of a minimum standard.

I am very concerned about not be able to do anything such as work on the car or do driver changes during fueling. This type of rule cause teams to rush the fueling and the driver change and that may be a much unsafer situation, particularly with all the stuff yo need to hook up to the driver these days.

Be very very careful.
 
One postive aspect of the timed stop is the abilty to not rush the driver restraint. having him out and needing to hook him back in will cause some teams to rush an important step, and will result in less than safe racing.
 
I am very concerned about not be able to do anything such as work on the car or do driver changes during fueling. This type of rule cause teams to rush the fueling and the driver change and that may be a much unsafer situation, particularly with all the stuff yo need to hook up to the driver these days.

Be very very careful.
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Yes, be very careful.

You DO NOT want drivers fastened into cars using just dump cans. You DO NOT want people under cars while you are dumping fuel into them with dump cans.
Its just wayyyyy too easy to spill the gas all over the place. I've done most of my racing in enduros over the past few years and fuel spillage is an issue.
And you don't want to require a dry break system and filler rigs. It then becomes cost prohibitive for most folks.

Want you want are rules that reward fast, safe, organized, practiced pit stops that at the same time penalize things like fuel spillage and unsafe "rushing" type behavior.
Trust me, if you know you are going to take a stop and go for spilling fuel, you are going to take measures to make sure you don't. People still will do it (which is why nobody needs to be in or under the car), but it will be the exception rather than the norm.
 
If you make allowances that provide people a method of fueling the car quickly, there are two things it gains you - one is now you don't have yet another item to police and second if the car can be fueled quickly, people won't rush because they know they get it done fast w/o having to rush. It seems a little counter intuitive, but it works.

Closing the pit lane during cautions is similar to having long mandatory stops. Being able to time your stops when it is advantageous to you is a strategy thing that has huge pay offs for those able to pull it off.

But lets start w/ creating some guidelines to help people trying to host an enduro. More like a of 'don't forgets' such as - you will have to get food, drinks, replacements to the corner workers with cars on track etc. And a guide of how certain rules will shape the race based on past experiences.

Simpler is better, but then again, look what happened in Can-Am when there were no rules.
 
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