Fuel Cells/Location

G

Greg Amy

Administrator
Staff member
I'm looking for some experiences in regards to installed locations of fuel cells.

2003 ITCS 17.1.4.D.10.b reads, "The stock fuel tank may be replaced with a fuel cell. The fuel cell shall be located within twelve (12) inches of the original fuel tank location...See GCR Sections 17.12 and 19. for requirements."

17.12.4, Bulkhead, states, in part, "There shall be a metal bulkhead between the driver/passenger compartment and the compartment containing the fuel cell."

17.12.5, Location, states, in part, "Fuel cells shall be located within twelve (12) inches of the standard tank...The twelve (12) inch measurement is taken from the perimeter of the stock AND alternative [sic] fuel cell.

Two basic questions:

- Location: does this location rule from 17.12.5 also apply to IT, and if so does this perimeter also include the flanges of the tank and cell?

- Bulkhead: does the encasing steel metal container in which the fuel cell bladder exists suffice to meet the 17.12.4 bulkhead rule?

- Fuel Filler: if yes to the bulkhead query, is it allowed to have the fuel filler neck/cap inside the hatch of the car without an additional bulkhead or access hatch?

My reasons for trying to find direct experiences is because, obviously, we will be adding a fuel cell to the car. I have yet to make a final decision on size and manufacturer, but it will most likely be mounted aft of the rear axle line, right about where the spare tire well is now. Given no need for quick-fills, I'd like not have to make an additional bulkhead on top of it (mine's a hatchback car with no seats or vertical plates between the spare tire area and the driver.) Finally, I'd like to have the filler cap easily available from within the hatch.

One other consideration is the ATL Well Cell, a round one that fits into the spare tire hole. I need to learn more about this item, as I understand there is no metal enclosure for it.

Experiences are appreciated, good or bad.

Greg
 
Two basic questions:

- Location: does this location rule from 17.12.5 also apply to IT, and if so does this perimeter also include the flanges of the tank and cell?
I believe that is the case.

- Bulkhead: does the encasing steel metal container in which the fuel cell bladder exists suffice to meet the 17.12.4 bulkhead rule?
No. Consider the Bladder and its box as the "cell". You need more than the cell. If you go with the "tire well" cell, you still need a hinged box to cover the top of it ( the bulkhead for the sides is the spare tire well sheet metal.

The bulkhead is to separate the cell from the compartment to keep fumes (and flames) away from the driver.


- Fuel Filler: if yes to the bulkhead query, is it allowed to have the fuel filler neck/cap inside the hatch of the car without an additional bulkhead or access hatch?

My reasons for trying to find direct experiences is because, obviously, we will be adding a fuel cell to the car. I have yet to make a final decision on size and manufacturer, but it will most likely be mounted aft of the rear axle line, right about where the spare tire well is now. Given no need for quick-fills, I'd like not have to make an additional bulkhead on top of it (mine's a hatchback car with no seats or vertical plates between the spare tire area and the driver.) Finally, I'd like to have the filler cap easily available from within the hatch.

One other consideration is the ATL Well Cell, a round one that fits into the spare tire hole. I need to learn more about this item, as I understand there is no metal enclosure for it.

Experiences are appreciated, good or bad.

Greg[/B][/QUOTE]
 
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">No. Consider the Bladder and its box as the \"cell\".  You need more than the cell.</font>
Click to expand...

Thanks, joeg. I'm confused about that, since I've seen cars that appeared to have the top of a "fuel cell" exposed in the hatch area with no other bulkheads (you could see the red cell containment box and the filler neck by looking down into the hatch glass.)

I've been looking on the web for legal cell install photos, and I'm coming up blank. Of course, this wasn't on my RADAR screen during racing season and we won't see a race up here in CT until April...

Tim, it's a Nissan NX2000:
http://www.kakashiracing.com
 
I would reccomend against the "Well Cell" or any cell that sits behind the rear axle. Back in my 510 days Brad Herring, a fellow 510 driver slid off in some oil at Road Atlanta's turn 5. A moment later, an SSA Saab 900 Turbo slid in the same oil and hit Brad's car squarely in the trunk.
The cell was crushed into the diff. housing and burst. Brad had suffered some temporary nerve damage and was not immediately able to get out of the car. It made for some very tense moments for him and he has not raced since.
I feel that having the cell in its stock location, or at least close to it, is the best choice. That's both from a safety and polar moment of inertia standpoint.
I don't see why NASCAR still keeps the cells hung out the back end as wall bait.



------------------
Tim Rogers
-ITS NX2000 slowly in the works...
 
Originally posted by timrogers:

I don't see why NASCAR still keeps the cells hung out the back end as wall bait.
Click to expand...

Not to mention fuel pumps that hang of the RF of the engine and get knocked off every other time a car hits the wall RF first.

The NASCAR cells are a whole different breed of cat than whets required for us.

Some thoughts, Greg..... first, take a 12" unit of string and anywhere that string can touch while still touching any part of the stock tank is, IMHO, fair game. If I wanted, I could have a cell fabbed for my RX-7 that would be legal and in front of the axle.

Second, keep in mind that usually there is a weight penalty associated with a cell, when all is said and done. Not always, but something to think about.



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
Thanks, all, for the comments. Tim, nice photos, exactly what I was looking for. It appears you've confirmed that a separate cover is required (although - no offense - I fail to see how it will keep fuel from leaking into the driver's compartment if the containment box ruptures...)

Jake, the 12" string idea is exactly what I had in mind. Plus, I sincerely doubt many tech inspectors are that picky about it, give or take a few inches (we'll be legal anyway...) I just wanted to make sure it wasn't 12 inches center-to-center.

The driving force behind this fuel cell install is not safety, per se. I'm perfectly happy safety-wise with the stock tank in its stock location in the center of the car. No, I need the space where the stock fuel tank is currently for fabrication of an effective rear swaybar.

For various reasons, and without going into too much detail, there isn't any good bolt-on rear swaybars for this chassis, it's all street cra... uh, stuff. The current swaybar mounting location leaves a lot to be desired with the support brackets hanging out in the breeze unsupported to let the bar clear the spare tire well. We must move the fuel tank out of the way to have space to make a good rear swaybar design, and the only way to do this legally is to install a fuel cell in the location of the current spare tire well.

You guys that picked the right cars with lots of aftermaket support should be patting yourselves on the back right now.

So, while I would much prefer to leave the stock fuel tank in its stock location, we're performance-limited by doing so. We, fortunately, have 25-40 pounds of extra ballast to play with (depending on how my diet goes this winter), so in the end we'll end up with the fuel farther aft for better fore-aft weight distribution, not to mention the additional weight of the steel tubular cage we're going to build around the cell...

Well, if I gotta build a box for it, I'll do it, although it sure seems like the bladder is the tank and the metal structure is the bulkhead...what if I were to build my own rubber bladder tank and declare that it was the fuel cell? Then, wouldn't the metal box I put it in be my bulkhead? Just thinking out loud...

More photos and rules interpretations are fully welcome!

Greg
 
The metal box IS the bulkhead, but you have to enclose the filler cap area. I agree this will do little to contain fumes or spills. Fuel pumps must also be enclosed.

------------------
"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series
 
Originally posted by grega:
The driving force behind this fuel cell install is not safety, per se. I'm perfectly happy safety-wise with the stock tank in its stock location in the center of the car. No, I need the space where the stock fuel tank is currently for fabrication of an effective rear swaybar.

For various reasons, and without going into too much detail, there isn't any good bolt-on rear swaybars for this chassis, it's all street cra... uh, stuff. The current swaybar mounting location leaves a lot to be desired with the support brackets hanging out in the breeze unsupported to let the bar clear the spare tire well.
Click to expand...

Greg, I agree with your assessment here. However, the swaybar brackets are free, so why not get a little more creative here? It seems to me that installing a cell, especially in the undesireable location of the spare well, is a worse alternative.

Call me if you want to discuss it further.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Greg, I've seen a gazillion cell installs where I could read "Fuel Safe" on the red box from behind tha car looking under the bumper. Of course, the cells were mounted in a cage of some sort. And the inside compartment was seperated by some form of "bulkhead", which was, in some cases, sheetmetal ductwork material from some one's furnace, attached with a piano hinge and held down with a Zeus fastener.

Now I know you're a capable guy, but making one of these thingies aint easy, especially the testing and certification! (I know you were johin' about that)

Before you put Matt through all that agony, be sure that is EXACTLY where you want your ballast!

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
Originally posted by grega:
I'm looking for some experiences in regards to installed locations of fuel cells.

2003 ITCS 17.1.4.D.10.b reads, "The stock fuel tank may be replaced with a fuel cell. The fuel cell shall be located within twelve (12) inches of the original fuel tank location...See GCR Sections 17.12 and 19. for requirements."

send me an email and I will send you photos of my cuell cell in an integra. I dont know how to post them on this thread. I see your post was a long time ago so maybe you are all done with this. [email protected]
17.12.4, Bulkhead, states, in part, "There shall be a metal bulkhead between the driver/passenger compartment and the compartment containing the fuel cell."

17.12.5, Location, states, in part, "Fuel cells shall be located within twelve (12) inches of the standard tank...The twelve (12) inch measurement is taken from the perimeter of the stock AND alternative [sic] fuel cell.

Two basic questions:

- Location: does this location rule from 17.12.5 also apply to IT, and if so does this perimeter also include the flanges of the tank and cell?

- Bulkhead: does the encasing steel metal container in which the fuel cell bladder exists suffice to meet the 17.12.4 bulkhead rule?

- Fuel Filler: if yes to the bulkhead query, is it allowed to have the fuel filler neck/cap inside the hatch of the car without an additional bulkhead or access hatch?

My reasons for trying to find direct experiences is because, obviously, we will be adding a fuel cell to the car. I have yet to make a final decision on size and manufacturer, but it will most likely be mounted aft of the rear axle line, right about where the spare tire well is now. Given no need for quick-fills, I'd like not have to make an additional bulkhead on top of it (mine's a hatchback car with no seats or vertical plates between the spare tire area and the driver.) Finally, I'd like to have the filler cap easily available from within the hatch.

One other consideration is the ATL Well Cell, a round one that fits into the spare tire hole. I need to learn more about this item, as I understand there is no metal enclosure for it.

Experiences are appreciated, good or bad.

Greg
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by GregAmy:
This thread's from last year, Joe. We fabbed the swaybar since then.
Click to expand...

That's funny as hell. All I saw was January. Then I said to myself,"self what the hell is Greg doing now? " DUH my bad.



------------------
Crazy Joe
#01 ITA
Nissan Sentra SE-R
 
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