getting fat
- Thread starter mlytle
- Start date
Bruce Shafer
New member
I would say the E36 will get its reward right after the most dominant car in ITS, the RX-7, gets slapped with a hundred pounds of trophy lead.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Can you provide the method of determing how "most dominant" was defined?
If you mean by the number of race wins over time, thats not a viable method.
I ask you this: Take the best drivers in the nation in RX-7s, and E-36s, and put them in a 3 race series at Road Atlanta, VIR and Road America. Eliminate mechanical failures...which car will wind up in front?
I think the weight issue is troubling the board becuase they are trying to attach a value to the affect extra weight will have over longer race periods (vs. Qualifying), as opposed to an intake restrictor. Thats just a guess though.
------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
If you mean by the number of race wins over time, thats not a viable method.
I ask you this: Take the best drivers in the nation in RX-7s, and E-36s, and put them in a 3 race series at Road Atlanta, VIR and Road America. Eliminate mechanical failures...which car will wind up in front?
I think the weight issue is troubling the board becuase they are trying to attach a value to the affect extra weight will have over longer race periods (vs. Qualifying), as opposed to an intake restrictor. Thats just a guess though.
------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
JeffYoung
New member
Jake, I agree with you for the most part on BMWs, and really enjoyed your last post on the General thread regardig the history of IT.
BUT.....take those same two E36s and RX7s and run them at Roebling, Kershaw and Lime Rock...and you probably get a different result.
The E36 will dominate at HP tracks, I agree, but the 7s and the 240s still take wins (even against the best E36s) at other places.
BUT.....take those same two E36s and RX7s and run them at Roebling, Kershaw and Lime Rock...and you probably get a different result.
The E36 will dominate at HP tracks, I agree, but the 7s and the 240s still take wins (even against the best E36s) at other places.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Jeff, I hear you...but...even at Lime Rock, and NHIS, two tracks that lack the airplane runway straight of say a Road America or Road Atlanta, Nick Leverone is having fits (like not winning fits!) with the E-36s. Nick ran last years ARRC, and was, IIRC, the fastest RX-7 in every session, but wasn't in the hunt fot the podium (sorry Nick!). And I don't think that the E-36s he runs against are the measure of the better E-36s in the country. (no offense guys...getting closer all the time, but the fast guys are insanely fast!)
Also, when I think of all the tracks the SCCA runs on, I can think of tons of tracks that are in the RA mold, and not so many that are in the Waterford Hills/ Roebling Road mold. Even Laguna Seca, not known for its long straights, is a place that would favor the E-36, as its longer straights are all uphill!
I know what you are saying, but I still think the balance is tipped to the BMW, both in the tracks that we run most, and the BMWs physical attributes.
Calling the RX-7 a "dominant" car is a huge strech...perhaps it was a joke none of us got!
------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
Also, when I think of all the tracks the SCCA runs on, I can think of tons of tracks that are in the RA mold, and not so many that are in the Waterford Hills/ Roebling Road mold. Even Laguna Seca, not known for its long straights, is a place that would favor the E-36, as its longer straights are all uphill!
I know what you are saying, but I still think the balance is tipped to the BMW, both in the tracks that we run most, and the BMWs physical attributes.
Calling the RX-7 a "dominant" car is a huge strech...perhaps it was a joke none of us got!
------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
You seem to have forgotten that Speedsource was at a Grand-Am event (and Jeff Hill had sold his car), so none of the top Rx-7's from the Southeast were even there. Nick also surely would have been faster had he been more experienced with the track.
And outside of the Rx-7's, don't forget that a 240Z easily had second, with the most dominant 240Z not at the event either.
Nearly all of the fast E36's were there - name one that was not (other than York, who was there but broke on test day).
Only one Rx-7 and one 240Z that had a chance at winning bothered to showed up, and both were in the top 5.
Grafton
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Well, I am looking forward to another great ARRC, and I hope the best of the best all show up, run strong and run legal and we can all go home entertained and perhaps edified.
------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
mlytle
New member
me too al!
i wanna know that the guy kickin' all our butts in every marrs race is the top dog at the arrc!
and i here he will be playing with you next weekend! ;-)
all the hints from the it comp committee seem to be that the e36 WILL gain weight. argh.
marshall
ITS #64 BMW E36
DC Region MARRS Series
[This message has been edited by mlytle (edited September 29, 2004).]
i wanna know that the guy kickin' all our butts in every marrs race is the top dog at the arrc!
and i here he will be playing with you next weekend! ;-)
all the hints from the it comp committee seem to be that the e36 WILL gain weight. argh.
marshall
ITS #64 BMW E36
DC Region MARRS Series
[This message has been edited by mlytle (edited September 29, 2004).]
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Just for giggles, what would you E36 guys rather have...weight or an intake restrictor?
If you think more weight is your choice how much is fair? How much is too much?
Think globaly.
------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
If you think more weight is your choice how much is fair? How much is too much?
Think globaly.
------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
mlytle
New member
c: none of the above...;-)
what i would rather see is reclassification of a bunch of cars and maybe a new itss class. move slower cars to ita. move bmw's and whatever else comes allong that is fast to itss.
heck, the ita honda crx's seem to be running away with most all of the ita races around here, they are actually running times that would put them in the top third of the its class. i haven't heard much from the rest of the ita crowd complaining that the crx's needed to be slowed down somehow or moved to its. hmmm.
marshall
what i would rather see is reclassification of a bunch of cars and maybe a new itss class. move slower cars to ita. move bmw's and whatever else comes allong that is fast to itss.
heck, the ita honda crx's seem to be running away with most all of the ita races around here, they are actually running times that would put them in the top third of the its class. i haven't heard much from the rest of the ita crowd complaining that the crx's needed to be slowed down somehow or moved to its. hmmm.
marshall
mlytle
New member
sounds like you know of a fast red integra! or else "red" is a color worth some extra hp....;-)
yes, my observation was just based on events i have seen with marrs series, including watkins glen with glen region. crx's seemed dominant. at summit point, crx's have had faster lap times than any other ita car and nearly all the its cars except the e36 bmws.
yes, my observation was just based on events i have seen with marrs series, including watkins glen with glen region. crx's seemed dominant. at summit point, crx's have had faster lap times than any other ita car and nearly all the its cars except the e36 bmws.
dave parker
New member
Marshall
Yes i think in the right hands the e36 is the dominant car in ITS. Is it ready for extra weight? that is up to the driver.
Remember what happens in the MARRS races stays in the MARRS races.
STOP tellin the world that Matt Yip and I are FATT!!!!
dave parker
wdcrITC#97
Yes i think in the right hands the e36 is the dominant car in ITS. Is it ready for extra weight? that is up to the driver.
Remember what happens in the MARRS races stays in the MARRS races.
STOP tellin the world that Matt Yip and I are FATT!!!!
dave parker
wdcrITC#97
as AB said, around here is the key. I haven't been to LRP enough or paid attention as a wider region of people show up to those events. but at NHIS events, a crx is rarely seen. The integra's usually grab 4 of the top 5 spots. And from the few times I have been to LRP there's usually an even mix of integra's and crx's in the top 10. Seems the integra's are grabbing the top spots with Tom Blaney being the lone crx fighting his way thru them, sometimes winning and sometimes not. Anyway, sorry to digress.
Those E36's just seem to walk from everyone else, but my base of knowledge in saying that is only this past season at 2 tracks, so take it with a grain of salt.
s
Super Swift
New member
Jake
Bruce said what he did because he has the fastest Florida e36. (if not very close to it) Bruce races at several tracks across the southeast Moroso, Sebring, VIR, Homestead… and in his may races this year his over-dog dominating e36 has only received a limited number of wins. (maybe only one at Sebring Short)
So, Jake don’t tell him he is wrong because in Florida, the most prolific region for ITS, the RX-7 is king. The Integra GSR has more wins in Florida this year than the e36. The Prelude has more this year. The 190E is in the same ballpark. The RX-7 has had more wins in the north this year than the e36 has had in Florida. (Don’t say unfair comparison because there have been several races held down there. {+/-20} Also, don’t even think of insulting the car quality of the Florida boys. One of the e36’s that finished ahead of Nick last year has been down to Florida a few times this year and hasn’t returned home with a 5$ trophy.)
Maybe the classification of the cars is far better than you think Jake. No one has seen a series of races with all the best cars running. Maybe the true over-dog is the 944S, Milano 3.0, 911, VW VR-6, 98 Prelude or THERE IS NO OVER-DOG!!!
p.s. The last results I saw for Road America were won by an Olds.
Bruce said what he did because he has the fastest Florida e36. (if not very close to it) Bruce races at several tracks across the southeast Moroso, Sebring, VIR, Homestead… and in his may races this year his over-dog dominating e36 has only received a limited number of wins. (maybe only one at Sebring Short)
So, Jake don’t tell him he is wrong because in Florida, the most prolific region for ITS, the RX-7 is king. The Integra GSR has more wins in Florida this year than the e36. The Prelude has more this year. The 190E is in the same ballpark. The RX-7 has had more wins in the north this year than the e36 has had in Florida. (Don’t say unfair comparison because there have been several races held down there. {+/-20} Also, don’t even think of insulting the car quality of the Florida boys. One of the e36’s that finished ahead of Nick last year has been down to Florida a few times this year and hasn’t returned home with a 5$ trophy.)
Maybe the classification of the cars is far better than you think Jake. No one has seen a series of races with all the best cars running. Maybe the true over-dog is the 944S, Milano 3.0, 911, VW VR-6, 98 Prelude or THERE IS NO OVER-DOG!!!
p.s. The last results I saw for Road America were won by an Olds.
Super Swift
New member
Jake
Every race this year at Laguna Seca has been won by an RX-7.
http://www.sfrscca.org/Results/index.html
Every race this year at Laguna Seca has been won by an RX-7.
http://www.sfrscca.org/Results/index.html
Nick Leverone
New member
The problem with the E36 is that it has an admitted and from what I have heard confirmed 50 more HP and close to 100 more ft.lbs of torque than a well built Rx-7. The BMW's in the Northeast handle almost as well as my Rx-7 and are a bit faster down a long straight (they are not nearly as powerful as the BMW's at the ARRC), we have great races and I hate to see that change, but the fact of the matter is this, the potential of the BMW is higher than most BMW drivers have achieved in their car and definitely higher than the original members who classified it thought it could make. There for you have to look at what the car is capable of in its most potent form and I think the ARC cars and the Bimmerworld cars are showing us the ultimate performance. Don't get me wrong the drivers of the fast cars at the ARRC is awesome and I have only driven the track two times, but they are pulling my Rx-7 down the straight 3-4 car lengths, even when I am on their bumper coming off seven I get pulled 2-3. I personally think that a restrictor is the way to go, easy to administer, safer than gobs of weight in the driver compartment and does not take away from the brakes and handling of the car just effects the biggest problem I see with the car, POWER!
Just my two cents, we will see what happens either way I will be back at the ARRC next year trying to keep up.
------------------
Nick Leverone
04 ITS Mazda Rx-7
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Just my two cents, we will see what happens either way I will be back at the ARRC next year trying to keep up.
------------------
Nick Leverone
04 ITS Mazda Rx-7
www.flatout-motorsports.com
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Super Swift...wish I knew your name...well, anyway...
Was the Mercedes the same one I saw at the ARRCs? What about all the other cars you refer to from FL? Which ones went one state north for the big race?
The problem with merely citing results is the relative lack of comparable data. For example...the BMW that you site as being the best in FL..did he run against the guys from VIR like York? How'd he do?
(I am asking, not setting anything up as I don't know... I don't recall if he was at the ARRCs or not, and the other cars you mentioned weren't associated with drivers)
The point is, that without seeing how those guys run against "these guys" it's hard to draw any solid conclusions. And while the ARRCs aren't the "be all and end all" of races, they DO provide a common ground for the best of the best to compete. Also, while there is no such thing as guaranteed legality, we know that the front runners at the ARRC are not blatently illegal, which is next to impossible to say for nearly any other race in the country.
As far as I know, all ITS frontrunners made it thru the tech shed unscathed.
A final thought. We all know that two cars can run identical lap times, but if one is decidedly quicker down the straights, but an inferior handler, it will still win once the racing starts.
------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
Was the Mercedes the same one I saw at the ARRCs? What about all the other cars you refer to from FL? Which ones went one state north for the big race?
The problem with merely citing results is the relative lack of comparable data. For example...the BMW that you site as being the best in FL..did he run against the guys from VIR like York? How'd he do?
(I am asking, not setting anything up as I don't know... I don't recall if he was at the ARRCs or not, and the other cars you mentioned weren't associated with drivers)
The point is, that without seeing how those guys run against "these guys" it's hard to draw any solid conclusions. And while the ARRCs aren't the "be all and end all" of races, they DO provide a common ground for the best of the best to compete. Also, while there is no such thing as guaranteed legality, we know that the front runners at the ARRC are not blatently illegal, which is next to impossible to say for nearly any other race in the country.
As far as I know, all ITS frontrunners made it thru the tech shed unscathed.
A final thought. We all know that two cars can run identical lap times, but if one is decidedly quicker down the straights, but an inferior handler, it will still win once the racing starts.
------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]