Heel and Toe Downshifting

J

Jeremy Billiel

New member
I attended Skip Barber Racing School, where it was ingrained in your head to always Heel, Toe Downshift. It wasn't an option as those cars had no syncros. As a result, I have always done this in my GSR as well.

I have been talking with many and seen a lot of race footage (Including Ruck and Amy at the ARRC) and I am amazed that most do not Heel Toe downshift in production based cars. I certainly realize that you don't *have* to, but going back to simple terms; you slowing down more than you may need to, No?

I do admit, that as my brake pedal goes down over the length of the race I loose the gas sometimes and my downshift gets a little sloppy.

Thoughts?
 
Practice in a street car. The light applications needed at regular road speed makes your foot more sensitive to brake pedal pressure and gives you more control. When you are at race speeds the heavier pedal pressure the easier it is to match revs.
 
Practice in a street car. The light applications needed at regular road speed makes your foot more sensitive to brake pedal pressure and gives you more control. When you are at race speeds the heavier pedal pressure the easier it is to match revs.
[/b]
Click to expand...

Understood Evan, but if its so important why are many successful drivers not doing it?
 
If by H&T you mean holding the brakes while blipping the throttle during a downshift, I do, for sure, esp when skipping a gear. (rarely, but I do that as well)

But, I never double clutch on the track. In my old 911 I do on the street when tooling around, but never in the race car. I either don't have the skill to do it fast enough, or I just don't think the cost is worth the benefit.
 
>> why are many successful drivers not doing it?

Because in IT even those of us who are winning are not getting 100% out of the car or ourselves at all times.
Be honest now! B)

Oh and Evan ... congrats on landing the seat with us for Miami! Best of luck to you and Andrew.
See you down there in a few weeks. :023:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3ULS7pnxyg
 
Where's the waffle iron........

Jeremy, you need to stop trying to get advice from 10,000 different people!! Especially since you are very liberal with despensing it!!! Even when not asked!!! Holy crap!!! :rolleyes:

I found that H&T is much more important in a rear wheel drive. I think most times you can get away with it in a FWD........ However, when I'm screaming through the first part of Big Bend, hard on the brakes AND turning the wheel, you're damn right I want the downshift to be smooth. It has become second nature for me so that's the only way I do it. Left foot braking is a whole 'nother story........

Practice grasshopper.............
 
I always H&T on my street car and it's become second nature. LOL

I used to in the race car, have the pedals set-up so that I can, but I no longer H&T in my current car (FWD, Prelude).
 
>> why are many successful drivers not doing it?

Because in IT even those of us who are winning are not getting 100% out of the car or ourselves at all times.
Be honest now! B)

[/b]
Click to expand...

This is precisely my point. I technically double clutch now, because I had to with the skippy cars, but I can tell a difference on how smooth the car is. I go brake ->clutch->neutral->clutch->blip->gear->clutch.

So I in a production car I am pretty sure I am doing much more than neccessary and I believe I am loosing time screwing around and thinking about this sometimes. Can't I just go to brake->clutch->blip->gear->clutch?

Oh an yes Jeff I ask questions, but I still know I have much to learn so I ask. I am not afraid to say I am a rookie still.

Jeremy - Who is waiting to find a yellow stripe on the back of my GSR one day. There you go, I just gave you guys a good prank to pull on me!
 
I took the Skippy course too... but thankfully had H/T down long before that. Shouldn't the question have 2 choices....

1) H/T blip for a good rev-match
2) H/T with full double clutch & rev match

I probably only need #1 but instinctly do 2, a habit I should break.

Shimming the BP to get it level with the AP under threshold braking makes it easier BTW.
 
H & T means to me, keeping the car balanced & being smooth. The more abrupt you are with the car the more likley you might spin when driving near the edge, the more abrupt you are on the drive train & suspension the more repairs you have. Since I'm part Welsh & Scotch I absoutely hate to spend money when I break things :D , whether it's my own car or even if I'm driving someone else's. The smoother you are the faster you will be.
 
I'm old school.

H&T and double clutch on street car and racecar ALL the time, helps smooth out the down shifts, AND easier on the gearbox, PLUS sounds good ;)

That's on of the reasons I make sure my street car is a stick.

Practice, practice, practice.
 
Being new to the driving aspect of racing this has been a very interesting post. However I am now a little confused, so hopefully you can steer me straight or shift my understanding into high gear (what a couple of hokey puns).

My past experience is that you need to blip the throttle to speed match on trannys with synchros and not so much with dog ring type boxes. Dog rings can typically be shifted very quickly (the faster the better) and w/o the clutch. This leads to left foot braking most of the time. When up shifting you only need to let off slightly to "unlock" the dogs. Like on a MX bike.

More time needs to be taken with synchos (if they are to survive) to allow them to do the speed matching. Blipping kind of helps them along and keeps up the revs as you take more time to shift especially on multiple downshifts.

I have located my brake pedal closer to facilitate the whole "heel-toe" shifting experience. Also, isn't it more of a rolling of the foot and ankle to blip it anyway?

Also, how do you left foot brake and use the clutch to downshift? No cracks about being more endowed than the next guy either! :o
 
Being new to the driving aspect of racing this has been a very interesting post. However I am now a little confused, so hopefully you can steer me straight or shift my understanding into high gear (what a couple of hokey puns).

Also, isn't it more of a rolling of the foot and ankle to blip it anyway?

Also, how do you left foot brake and use the clutch to downshift? No cracks about being more endowed than the next guy either! :o [/b]
Click to expand...



Also, isn't it more of a rolling of the foot and ankle to blip it anyway? YES



Also, how do you left foot brake and use the clutch to downshift? I do not downshift when left foot braking, I'm already in a slected gear if I do decide to left foot brake.


DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS STUFF IN A RACE UNLESS YOU CAN DO IT AS EASY AS YOU BREATH
 
I have located my brake pedal closer to facilitate the whole "heel-toe" shifting experience. Also, isn't it more of a rolling of the foot and ankle to blip it anyway?[/b]
Click to expand...

Skippy will tell you that rolling your ankle will cause uneven braking. They suggest keeping your right knee to the left as you start to brake, then move your knee to the right to cause the blip.
 
Sounds to me like Jeremy's question is based on the false premise that H&T and double clutching always go together. The latter has to have the former but not vice versa. While it is indeed easier on the tranny, he does not need to be double clutching his Integra.

I always H&T but not in the traditional configuration. I am too slew-footed to rotate my heel counterclockwise to get to the gas so I have my heel on the brake and rotate my toes in a more comfortable way to the gas. The heel is less sensitive than the toes and it is off the floor but IMO hard braking demands less sensitivity than rev-matching w/ the gas. As others have suggested, I sensitize my heel in my street car. It is my understanding that the genesis of the blip is w/ non-syncho boxes that require rev-matching: you raise/blip the revs above the necessary point, put slight pressure on the gearshift, and when the revs fall to the proper point, it slides into the lower gear. We don't need to do that; all we need to do is have the revs high enough so that you don't either create way too much engine braking and lock the drive wheels up or tear up your tranny. You can do that by blipping but also by applying and holding a sufficient amount of throttle. I try to do the latter because I think it is smoother but usually backslide to blipping. I have heard some in-car audio and been impressed w/ how the engine revs rose and fell but you never were aware of where the shifts were. To me, that's the epitome. :026:
 
Good explanations. The type of transmission, is the key, as mentioned. And, to some degree, the ruggedness of it is too. Also, some other factors come into play, like the flywheel and it's effect, and throttle response. So with a heavy flywheel, and a sluggish throttle response, you really have to give it a helthy blip, and relatively early. Other cars it can be the opposite, a little blip, and rather late. It is definately something to practice, and not in the middle of a race! (It's one more reason to drive the same car on the street as the one you race)
 
It is definately something to practice, and not in the middle of a race! (It's one more reason to drive the same car on the street as the one you race) [/b]
Click to expand...



Oh HELL!!!!! :026: I was wondering where my 6th gear was in my E36, damn, it's not the same as my E46 M3! Damn you Jake, now I'm all confused. :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top