What's up guys, I have never raced befor ebut after spending all of last weekend at the track watching qualifiying and the what not i'm hooked. I have a old '87 bumping around that i was thinking of converting but wanted to know if it would really be worth it or shoud i look for a better option. thanks guys
is a mk2 16v competitive?
- Thread starter evofool
- Start date
The later 2.0 16v was made eligible for ITA a few years ago but I don't know if anyone's built one. I don't think they are perfect on paper but they should be in the ballpark, assuming build quality, budget, and driving skill are comparable.
The 1.8 is listed 275 pounds lighter than the Rat motor. I've seen a couple of examples of that car and they seem to struggle. I don't know if it can actually get down to its race weight.
Under current rules, it's legal to turn an 8v or early 16v into a 2.0 if the car you end up with is exactly the same as it would have been if you'd started with a "real" 90-92 GTI (e.g., big bumpers).
Where are you located? There might be people near you who can help...
K
The 1.8 is listed 275 pounds lighter than the Rat motor. I've seen a couple of examples of that car and they seem to struggle. I don't know if it can actually get down to its race weight.
Under current rules, it's legal to turn an 8v or early 16v into a 2.0 if the car you end up with is exactly the same as it would have been if you'd started with a "real" 90-92 GTI (e.g., big bumpers).
Where are you located? There might be people near you who can help...
K
shwah
New member
Way back at ARRC 1 it was good enough to win, though a wet race IIRC.
The US intake cam is awfully weak on those, and the exhaust side ports are pretty crappy without a good work over (which can't be done in IT). Those factors may make it tough to keep up on the straights. The chassis is a known quantity. I would go with the lower weight 1.8 myself. Actually considered doing it sometime just to see what it does.
If you do go 2.0, you may not be limited to big bumpers as many early 90 cars came with smalls.
Also note the Jettas have 10.1 front brakes (so do the Sciroccos), the GTI has 9.4. But that has no bearing on how the ITAC classified them, so I am told.
The US intake cam is awfully weak on those, and the exhaust side ports are pretty crappy without a good work over (which can't be done in IT). Those factors may make it tough to keep up on the straights. The chassis is a known quantity. I would go with the lower weight 1.8 myself. Actually considered doing it sometime just to see what it does.
If you do go 2.0, you may not be limited to big bumpers as many early 90 cars came with smalls.
Also note the Jettas have 10.1 front brakes (so do the Sciroccos), the GTI has 9.4. But that has no bearing on how the ITAC classified them, so I am told.
JLawton
New member
I know a lot of guys like the build as much as the racing, but if you want to save a ton of money and save on frustration you should probably buy your first car. You can get some decent cars for dirt cheap these days. There are two Saturns in the For Sale section (for example) that would be very inexpensive to get on the track and they are both good cars
What Jeff says should NOT be neglected.
It might *seem* like it would be cheaper to "do it a little bit at a time" but it almost never works out that way. If you can't afford the $$ to buy a car outright, you're better off opening a savings account and putting the dough in it rather than into a project. When you have saved enough, go shopping. If you DON'T save enough, at least you have the money rather than a half-finished stack of parts that are worth pennies on the dollar.
K
It might *seem* like it would be cheaper to "do it a little bit at a time" but it almost never works out that way. If you can't afford the $$ to buy a car outright, you're better off opening a savings account and putting the dough in it rather than into a project. When you have saved enough, go shopping. If you DON'T save enough, at least you have the money rather than a half-finished stack of parts that are worth pennies on the dollar.
K
the words of a very wise man...
jmracer17
New member
16v ITA
I run one now. Its a 1.8. I haven't touched the motor yet because I am still learning (17yrs old only 5 races). As far as I can see when someone else was in the car, there is nothing for the miatas or integras. Yes they have motors in them other than stock but still, Daytona they all walk away. Sebring is the same. I know most of it is me because I don't know the tricks of speed good enough yet but still, not very competitive. Great learner car though. Hey and I couldn't beat the price.... FREE!
I run one now. Its a 1.8. I haven't touched the motor yet because I am still learning (17yrs old only 5 races). As far as I can see when someone else was in the car, there is nothing for the miatas or integras. Yes they have motors in them other than stock but still, Daytona they all walk away. Sebring is the same. I know most of it is me because I don't know the tricks of speed good enough yet but still, not very competitive. Great learner car though. Hey and I couldn't beat the price.... FREE!
yeah, i'm kinda figuring it would be slower i suppose, the car has a 1.8l in it... i'll probably stay with it and see what happens, weight ratio wise it seems to make more sense. whats the average cost for a cage in one of these things.(this is my 3rd mk2, been driving the hell out of them for awhile)
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JLawton
New member
shwah
New member
So what car is it that you are staying with? 1.8 or 2.0? Couldn't tell if that comment was about the previous post, or about your car.
Now with the 1.8 you must retain the small bumpers.
I don't recall whether they were available without power steering. I know the Scirocco 16v came that way...
Getting the fueling right above 5k rpm will make a big difference. Like 10+ hp all by itself in some cases. When you get to that point, get it on a dyno and get it right.
Now with the 1.8 you must retain the small bumpers.
I don't recall whether they were available without power steering. I know the Scirocco 16v came that way...
Getting the fueling right above 5k rpm will make a big difference. Like 10+ hp all by itself in some cases. When you get to that point, get it on a dyno and get it right.
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Flyinglizard
New member
The 16V needs to turn to 8000rpm to get to the power level for ITA(150+hp). The stock, legal, cams wont allow much over 7200. 7200 is about the max for the 8V with the best cam and the ECM that allows proper fuel metering. After 20 years of racing both engines , the 8V comes alive much better, class wise, and cheaper than the 16v. And the 8V will tolerate the stock style fuel system better.
I worked for VW about 1991 or so and power steering was "standard" . I have never seen any 16v delivered without PS. They may exist ,but not many came that way.IMHO. Maybe 1987.5 Golfs, just after the Rocco intro.
You have to use the standard details the 16V to spin. IE, piston to wall needs to be about 005. Total Seal rings. The cams need to be closed up,as much as the rules allow. The compression highest, etc.
When you get all done, the car is still an aero brick, the roll centers are too high, the windsheild angle is too steep, etc. The ITB has a lower terminal V and the aero stuff is less of a factor. The ITA should go about 135 @ Daytona, The ITB goes about 120+-3. The 16V Golf wont go 135, the Rocco barely does.
The 16V Jeta is much better balanced and aero wise it is a lot better, FWIW. The VW makes a great track car and midpack racer, dont ever expect to get any money back out of the vast amounts spent.
You can buy one done for 6000$ usually. About half of the parts cost. The price is low because of the racing results, winning cars are worth more.
The 16V is a very nice power package. We drive an old beater Jett 16V. At this point in time, they are better kept than most 8V
James, I meant to talk to you more @ Sebring about your 16V, but I was busy with our new Spiniata.
I can send you a good base line setup for your car(known good values) E mail me ,I'll get back to you about wed next week. (Off to Summit today)
[email protected]
MM
I worked for VW about 1991 or so and power steering was "standard" . I have never seen any 16v delivered without PS. They may exist ,but not many came that way.IMHO. Maybe 1987.5 Golfs, just after the Rocco intro.
You have to use the standard details the 16V to spin. IE, piston to wall needs to be about 005. Total Seal rings. The cams need to be closed up,as much as the rules allow. The compression highest, etc.
When you get all done, the car is still an aero brick, the roll centers are too high, the windsheild angle is too steep, etc. The ITB has a lower terminal V and the aero stuff is less of a factor. The ITA should go about 135 @ Daytona, The ITB goes about 120+-3. The 16V Golf wont go 135, the Rocco barely does.
The 16V Jeta is much better balanced and aero wise it is a lot better, FWIW. The VW makes a great track car and midpack racer, dont ever expect to get any money back out of the vast amounts spent.
You can buy one done for 6000$ usually. About half of the parts cost. The price is low because of the racing results, winning cars are worth more.
The 16V is a very nice power package. We drive an old beater Jett 16V. At this point in time, they are better kept than most 8V
James, I meant to talk to you more @ Sebring about your 16V, but I was busy with our new Spiniata.
I can send you a good base line setup for your car(known good values) E mail me ,I'll get back to you about wed next week. (Off to Summit today)
[email protected]
MM
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Buy A Used Race Car!!! But buy one as it comes off the track. You will have plenty to do sorting a used car. I know where there is an ITC Scirocco with a DOM cage suitable for Production with a quaife and a 4.40 something ring and pinion. It is just sitting collecting dust in South Florida. Regards
Tom A
New member
What is your budget? There are a couple cars on the Council forum that look interesting.
http://www.icscc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100
http://www.icscc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293
If you are set on a VW, there is this:
http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25914
Not local though.
On Edit: You are close enough to get a car from Norcal, so also keep and eye on the NASA Forums, as well as craigslist for any place between San Francisco and Seattle. Search for SCCA and NASA, you will sometimes find good deals, like this: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/cto/1236970395.html
Tom
http://www.icscc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100
http://www.icscc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293
If you are set on a VW, there is this:
http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25914
Not local though.
On Edit: You are close enough to get a car from Norcal, so also keep and eye on the NASA Forums, as well as craigslist for any place between San Francisco and Seattle. Search for SCCA and NASA, you will sometimes find good deals, like this: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/cto/1236970395.html
Tom
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Bill Miller
New member
That begs the questions of where does he race and who is he racing against? A 1.8 16v or a 2.0 16v isn't going to stand a chance in a North East ITA race. Cut the weight of the 2.0 closer to that of the 1.8, and you might have a chance.