Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
I think there are valid arguments for any choice. Just wanted to get as many opinions as possible.
IT going National - your opinion
- Thread starter Andy Bettencourt
- Start date
My opinion on this issue is drawn from my understanding of the history of the subject. It was, unlike other classes, designed as a regional class only. It was a place to run your old SS car when it was too old to run nationally, and you either didn't want to buy a new car to compete in the "car of the year" class or you thought it would be a cool idea to modify what you had to make it faster. Later, the opportunity to move from IT to Production was offered as several of the National Production classes were dying from poor subscription. That process, IMHO is a good one.
The only exception to that was American Sedan. That was a class developed, like the ITR concept, for people that had a need for more speed. It existed for a couple of years as a regional only class built under the standards as those for all of IT. The problem was that the cars were too fast for stock brakes and suspensions. Since the old A Sedan was now a part of GT1, there was an opening, and by going to National status, the rules could be modified for safety and performance. My buddy that drives AS told me once that he was glad to see the class go national, until he found out how much it cost. His is no cheap effort. He's sat on the pole of the Runoffs more than once and finished on the podium a couple of times. He no longer runs Regionals as his emphasis and money are now focused on National competition.
Even though the national ranks are full of old cars, my sense is that the emphasis in National racing is toward the newer, flashier cars. I won't say that the direction for National racing is towards a professional series, as others have, but it was only one president back that it seemed like that was where it was headed.
Spec Miata was embraced by National racing so that it wouldn't get left out in the cold. I don't believe anyone ever thought that it would take off like it did, but I feel that Mazda is pretty tickled about it. Even though the cars aren't all alike, to the average spectator eye, they are. SRF puts on just as good a race, but you can't drive one home.
There is a chance that ITR might go National...maybe ITS and ITA, too. But I doubt it. People talk about the price of racing going up. It won't. But if you want to run your ITA Miata at the pointy end of a national class, it will.
My question is, why? Why would you want to change theaters when the play is doing great where it's at? Having the national office and it's rules makers and changers put us at the end of the supper table isn't all that bad a deal.
The only exception to that was American Sedan. That was a class developed, like the ITR concept, for people that had a need for more speed. It existed for a couple of years as a regional only class built under the standards as those for all of IT. The problem was that the cars were too fast for stock brakes and suspensions. Since the old A Sedan was now a part of GT1, there was an opening, and by going to National status, the rules could be modified for safety and performance. My buddy that drives AS told me once that he was glad to see the class go national, until he found out how much it cost. His is no cheap effort. He's sat on the pole of the Runoffs more than once and finished on the podium a couple of times. He no longer runs Regionals as his emphasis and money are now focused on National competition.
Even though the national ranks are full of old cars, my sense is that the emphasis in National racing is toward the newer, flashier cars. I won't say that the direction for National racing is towards a professional series, as others have, but it was only one president back that it seemed like that was where it was headed.
Spec Miata was embraced by National racing so that it wouldn't get left out in the cold. I don't believe anyone ever thought that it would take off like it did, but I feel that Mazda is pretty tickled about it. Even though the cars aren't all alike, to the average spectator eye, they are. SRF puts on just as good a race, but you can't drive one home.
There is a chance that ITR might go National...maybe ITS and ITA, too. But I doubt it. People talk about the price of racing going up. It won't. But if you want to run your ITA Miata at the pointy end of a national class, it will.
My question is, why? Why would you want to change theaters when the play is doing great where it's at? Having the national office and it's rules makers and changers put us at the end of the supper table isn't all that bad a deal.
I voted "Regional Only Forever". I have seen too many national classes that are divided into "haves" and "have nots". It's why you see people in prod cars, formula cars, and sports racers that don't run nationals. There is nothing wrong with having a group of classes that are for local-level racing. We need that entry point and racers need a place to grow in the sport.
There are plenty of places for people that have the aspiration for that level of competition to compete already. Altering the basic concepts on which IT was established and adding to the turmoil that already exists in national racing does nothing for the racer or the club.
There are plenty of places for people that have the aspiration for that level of competition to compete already. Altering the basic concepts on which IT was established and adding to the turmoil that already exists in national racing does nothing for the racer or the club.
Speed Raycer
New member
IMO, let the lower end of the alphabet go national and keep A-E as regional only.
i'm with you kirk, i think the whole thing needs re-examination. but i'm torn in how to handle it. i think the top 24 classes in participation #'s should get to go. but i really don't think that F500 is a good entry point for new drivers. production based cars with limited modifications is the perfect point of entry (which currently means IT).
having ITR/ITS/ITA going national and leaving the lower cost B/C to regional is an interesting idea, but i don't think i would support it. if i was a new driver, i sure as heck wouldn't be very excited about racing 100whp fwd 15yr old econo cars in B/C.
given their recent track history, i trust the ITAC/CRB to make the right decision on this and i will react accordingly.
having ITR/ITS/ITA going national and leaving the lower cost B/C to regional is an interesting idea, but i don't think i would support it. if i was a new driver, i sure as heck wouldn't be very excited about racing 100whp fwd 15yr old econo cars in B/C.
given their recent track history, i trust the ITAC/CRB to make the right decision on this and i will react accordingly.
Actually, the production classes are in pretty good shape, thanks to the influx of former IT cars. There is still a possibility of the combination of G and H production, but E and F are stronger than ever. There are even plans for the future of A-D production as former pro series cars start looking for a home (just like former SS cars found a home in IT). The classes that are showing suffering signs are some of the more exotic classes like CSR and S2000. Side bar...those who desire to build a F1000 car should recall the days of the Shelby Can Am.
There is no mystery about the top 24 classes running (changed to 25 just in time). The schedule will allow for 24 classes which is coincidental with the current class structure. TV time can be adjusted as can race schedules. The bright spot is that they are looking at participation deciding the show. Maybe they'll start eliminating some of the poorly subscribed classes and make national racing a truly premier group. National racing is designed as the showcase for future pro racers or those who have the capability of being pro. Regional racing is for the guy who just wants to race.
I've seen IT cars and drivers who rival some of the best National and even professional efforts running. I've also seen some of the biggest POS running National 'cause they can. The guy driving a $20,000-$50,000 IT car does it because he wants to, not because he'd rather run National races. If we give IT Carte Blanche to Nationals, the process will only continue with the different levels of preparation. Even if we give only a few classes that opportunity and drop a couple, you'll see the same discrepancy in car preparation within a short while. There will always be the guys who spend the money getting to the races that should've gone into the car...and it will show.
There is no mystery about the top 24 classes running (changed to 25 just in time). The schedule will allow for 24 classes which is coincidental with the current class structure. TV time can be adjusted as can race schedules. The bright spot is that they are looking at participation deciding the show. Maybe they'll start eliminating some of the poorly subscribed classes and make national racing a truly premier group. National racing is designed as the showcase for future pro racers or those who have the capability of being pro. Regional racing is for the guy who just wants to race.
I've seen IT cars and drivers who rival some of the best National and even professional efforts running. I've also seen some of the biggest POS running National 'cause they can. The guy driving a $20,000-$50,000 IT car does it because he wants to, not because he'd rather run National races. If we give IT Carte Blanche to Nationals, the process will only continue with the different levels of preparation. Even if we give only a few classes that opportunity and drop a couple, you'll see the same discrepancy in car preparation within a short while. There will always be the guys who spend the money getting to the races that should've gone into the car...and it will show.
gprodracer
New member
Lets not forget the manufacturer and Topeka created T3 class, for which Topeka created this years exemption for. Jim Julow has already stated that if T3 wasn't the worst suscribed class, then no exemption would have been made, and GTL would have stayed home this year.
There is your example of the politics of National racing classes, and manufacturers influence on the televised Runoffs. Its this type of stuff that has me worried about IT. You work on your program for years, and the manufacturers come up with a new class to promote their cars. The CRB creates it, and gives it exemptions until the numbers build. As soon as your class doesn't make the numbers, no more exemptions, and your class stays home.
I'm not a black helicopter guy by any means, but that is the message that is being sent out. We all have different ideas about what is best for the club (or our own situations), so we must get all the facts we can before making up our minds. Then we must vote for who we feel is following the direction we want our club to go.
(steps down off soapbox)
Mark
There is your example of the politics of National racing classes, and manufacturers influence on the televised Runoffs. Its this type of stuff that has me worried about IT. You work on your program for years, and the manufacturers come up with a new class to promote their cars. The CRB creates it, and gives it exemptions until the numbers build. As soon as your class doesn't make the numbers, no more exemptions, and your class stays home.
I'm not a black helicopter guy by any means, but that is the message that is being sent out. We all have different ideas about what is best for the club (or our own situations), so we must get all the facts we can before making up our minds. Then we must vote for who we feel is following the direction we want our club to go.
(steps down off soapbox)
Mark
CaptainWho
New member
How about a choice for "I couldn't possibly care less ... I'll run what I run regardless."?
dickita15
New member
I am with Doug, I honestly do not believe it would have any effect on me. I race because I enjoy it and it is hard to do well. If I beat the guys that I think have similar equipment I am happy. If I have good dices I am happy. If IT went national I am sure there would be more well prepped cars around but I doubt there would be more of them running with me at most regionals. With Greg and Andy off running Nationals I might actually move up a couple of spots. If IT went National my $5000 Rx7 would still be a $5000 car.
Bill Miller
New member
Pretty much sums it up Dick, nice post! Interesting that we have a pretty high response / comment ratio. And Travis' comment pretty much says it all, and I suspect is the same position that a lot of the folks that voted 'Regional forever' come from. They look at it from what's best for them, not what's best for the Club.
Chris (Harris), IIRC, AS was born out of SSGT/ITGT. And you just reinforced my position. Your friend doesn't run Regionals in his AS car anymore, as he's focused on National racing.
Kirk has pretty much touched on what I've been saying for a while. Get rid of the Regional/National destinction on classes, and let the members speak w/ the cars that they bring to the track.
Andy,
I think this is an important topic to discuss, and gather feedback on, but your third option is pretty bogus. If IT goes National, IT goes National. You want to race your IT car at a Regional, that's your choice. You want to race it at a National, that's your choice too. Don't hang the guys that happend to run ITB/C cars out to dry, just because the cars in those classes are older/slower/not as popular.
StephenB
New member
Not to hijack the thread since it wasn't really a thread and more of a vote but...
Does anyone know why we still have National events Vs. Regional events? Other than the points and theoption to run at the kohler runnoffs is there really a reason? I have always wondered why we don't get everyone together. Regionals and Nationals are like 2 totally different clubs...
Thanks for your thoughts
Does anyone know why we still have National events Vs. Regional events? Other than the points and theoption to run at the kohler runnoffs is there really a reason? I have always wondered why we don't get everyone together. Regionals and Nationals are like 2 totally different clubs...
Thanks for your thoughts
Here's some interesting numbers http://www.scca.org/_FileLibrary/File/2006...allFinal-06.pdf
Only two classes in double digits...SM and SRF. Outside of C, the rest of IT would probably be in the top ten and would put on a better show than guys just showing up to get their four starts to qualify for the runoffs.
Just lose the regional/national distinction and let the top 24 classes go. As previously stated there are IT programs that are the equal of top national class programs.
On a personal level I think I'll pass on the opportunity to spend 7-10 days in scenic Topeka in the fall.
jerry
Only two classes in double digits...SM and SRF. Outside of C, the rest of IT would probably be in the top ten and would put on a better show than guys just showing up to get their four starts to qualify for the runoffs.
Just lose the regional/national distinction and let the top 24 classes go. As previously stated there are IT programs that are the equal of top national class programs.
On a personal level I think I'll pass on the opportunity to spend 7-10 days in scenic Topeka in the fall.
jerry
The only reason I've ever gotten out of a steward, race chairman, etc., was that it was done for economic reasons. The inspiration behind having the Double Nationals was to get more than the normal entry of national drivers to a particular event for the double points, thereby increasing income for the host regions.
In the SOWDIV for 2007, they are going to at least three two day nationals and three two day regionals. The reason I've heard is a worker problem (an explanation I don't yet understand), and a schedule problem. National races take too much time to run, as they are 45 miles rather than the 20 miles for regional.
It's an experiment that I'm curious to see if it will work. I might run some more races there if I can get a double weekend like they used to do. But I imagine I'll go where I can find some competition.
RacerBill
New member
I voted for IT to stay Regional. That also implies that I believe that there should be two divisions in amateur racing.
I voted for IT to stay Regional for a couple of reasons. It is a good place for new racers to start. The competition is good. For the most part, the participation numbers are strong. Etc. Etc.
I voted for two divisions for a couple of reasons. I like the idea of two levels of racing, and along with that, a choice of which level I wish to participate at. National races are longer. I might like that later, but the regional races are fine for now. The shorter Regional races allow for double race weekends (in most areas of the country) and I like that format.
I would like to see more crossover of cars from IT to the National classes. I believe that this would be better for the club as a whole rather than more classes (however, I feel that ITR is a very good move). Not to claim that my car would be a front runner in any class, but as an example, the Dodge Shelby is classed in ITA, FP (limited prep) EP (full prep) and GT3. Choices! Someone once had a spreadsheet that showed all the cars that were classed in SCCA road racing and what classes they ran in. I think that with the new classes, it would be interesting to see that again. It would also be a good tool to help a new racer decide where he wanted to start.
One last thought. Somewhere in the last month, I thought I read where Topeka was thinking about gatherind statistics on Regional class participation. I hope that happens, for better or worse.
I voted for IT to stay Regional for a couple of reasons. It is a good place for new racers to start. The competition is good. For the most part, the participation numbers are strong. Etc. Etc.
I voted for two divisions for a couple of reasons. I like the idea of two levels of racing, and along with that, a choice of which level I wish to participate at. National races are longer. I might like that later, but the regional races are fine for now. The shorter Regional races allow for double race weekends (in most areas of the country) and I like that format.
I would like to see more crossover of cars from IT to the National classes. I believe that this would be better for the club as a whole rather than more classes (however, I feel that ITR is a very good move). Not to claim that my car would be a front runner in any class, but as an example, the Dodge Shelby is classed in ITA, FP (limited prep) EP (full prep) and GT3. Choices! Someone once had a spreadsheet that showed all the cars that were classed in SCCA road racing and what classes they ran in. I think that with the new classes, it would be interesting to see that again. It would also be a good tool to help a new racer decide where he wanted to start.
One last thought. Somewhere in the last month, I thought I read where Topeka was thinking about gatherind statistics on Regional class participation. I hope that happens, for better or worse.
shwah
New member
No selection there for my vote, so here is my write-in.
I don't care much either way. If it goes National I might consider staying in IT when I decide to race National. If it does not, I will move to Production and have fun doing it - even if everyone thinks they are a bunch of whiners.
My vote is: I don't think the IT classes should be split. Make them all eligible, or none eligible. If they are eligible let participation be the deciding factor for each IT classification (and all other classes).
I still get a kick out of the cost to race that everyone has in thier heads. No a national contending effort is not cheap, but apparently most of us here pay for all of our parts and services at list price, and don't come up with any good ideas, or do any fab/design/test/build ourselves. There are podium runoffs cars running on less budget than some reported IT 'norms'. I think you will find that many racers would do a fine job of stepping up to higher competition levels without taking out 2nd mortgages.
I don't care much either way. If it goes National I might consider staying in IT when I decide to race National. If it does not, I will move to Production and have fun doing it - even if everyone thinks they are a bunch of whiners.
My vote is: I don't think the IT classes should be split. Make them all eligible, or none eligible. If they are eligible let participation be the deciding factor for each IT classification (and all other classes).
I still get a kick out of the cost to race that everyone has in thier heads. No a national contending effort is not cheap, but apparently most of us here pay for all of our parts and services at list price, and don't come up with any good ideas, or do any fab/design/test/build ourselves. There are podium runoffs cars running on less budget than some reported IT 'norms'. I think you will find that many racers would do a fine job of stepping up to higher competition levels without taking out 2nd mortgages.
planet6racing
New member
My vote is that all classes in the SCCA be treated equally. Therefore, if the top 24 classes are going to make the runoffs, then so be it for all classes.
I'm tired of being a second class member of the SCCA...
I'm tired of being a second class member of the SCCA...