Labor Day In Sonoma....
- Thread starter Z3_GoCar
- Start date
JoshS
New member
An ITS competitor protested another one for 5 items:
- Illegal MAF addition (MAF for piggyback ECU was added in front of the original AFM)
- Modified original AFM
- Bore
- Stroke
- Compression ratio
The MAF addition is something that the ITAC has received a letter on and in fact the same item was discussed on this forum, I think. But as of right now, anyway, it would seem to be illegal.
The other items were apparently a fishing expedition. The issue was that the protested driver had a flight to Paris to catch on Sunday evening, and the 3:20 scheduled race wouldn't have allowed a teardown to start until 4:00 at the earliest. It was pretty much impossible for him to stick around for a teardown and still make his flight. The paperwork was filed in the morning and the protestee was notified before the qualifying session at about 8:00am. So rather than go through the process, he decided to just withdraw from the race.
Unfortunately, he did not know about the mandatory penalty for refusing to be inspected. Doesn't matter much anyway, since he saw that as pretty much his only option given the schedule for the day. He was notified a couple of hours later of his penalty, which it appears is in fact mandatory per the GCR.
On a personal note, as far as I know the MAF issue is a real issue and likely would have resulted in a DQ, but the other items (the ones that caused him to withdraw) were baseless (again, as far as I know). The drivers involved had discussed the MAF issue in the past (and that's what prompted the letter to the ITAC about that rule), but the other items were surprises to the protestee. However, I appreciate that the protestor wrote paper. This is a competitor-policed sport and I'm fine with seeing paper get written, in fact, I'd encourage more of it.
Question for the other racers: what would you have done if you had been protested under these circumstances? Is it really all of our responsibility to make sure that we could stay at the track for several hours after the conclusion of our final race, just in case we get protested? Do you all do that? Do you think a mandatory 6-month suspension is appropriate in this circumstance? Right now the driver is pretty upset about the whole thing and is thinking that he'll be switching to NASA as a result.
Z3_GoCar
New member
Wow, that's a tough break... One would think that he could use the stock MAF, but having to run two MAF's! Then being forced to stick around to defend aginst a protest. I suspose a similar situation could happen in NASA....
What would happen if a protest happened with out the proper tools for tear down? Could you put your car the care of a third neutral party untill the proper tool's obtained? Then who pay's for the tools? Is that part of the protest bond? How about the quality of your tech staff, do you really trust them to perform a complete tear down without breaking things? What about all the one time use fasteners? Would you get reimbursed for them if they find nothing?
What would happen if a protest happened with out the proper tools for tear down? Could you put your car the care of a third neutral party untill the proper tool's obtained? Then who pay's for the tools? Is that part of the protest bond? How about the quality of your tech staff, do you really trust them to perform a complete tear down without breaking things? What about all the one time use fasteners? Would you get reimbursed for them if they find nothing?
Marcus Miller
New member
James- search for 'a protest story' on this forum; its a good read.
Josh-
A) I would have found a way to have someone I trust stay with the car, while I left for Paris. Results are what they are.
yes, by the rules you must be prepared to stay several hours after the race.
C) Rules in the GCR are there in black and white - 6 months is 6 months.
D) Tech is more invasive, hopefully he is ready. Protests happen too, they just don't create the public spectacle they do in the SCCA. He would be welcome, his history or crashing and contact, maybe not so much.
Josh-
A) I would have found a way to have someone I trust stay with the car, while I left for Paris. Results are what they are.
yes, by the rules you must be prepared to stay several hours after the race.C) Rules in the GCR are there in black and white - 6 months is 6 months.
D) Tech is more invasive, hopefully he is ready. Protests happen too, they just don't create the public spectacle they do in the SCCA. He would be welcome, his history or crashing and contact, maybe not so much.
Z3_GoCar
New member
Thanks for the link Josh, and thanks Marcus for the suggestion. I believe that I was just lurking this board then, so I might have missed it the first time. So, he got to tear his own engine down. Also, because Jake found the pistons had domes he didn't get reimbursed for gaskets and one time use bolts, or maybe Honda's get to reuse them all. I wonder if he's still racing of if OSB or maybe OSBB ( other sanctioning bodies beckoned.)
JoshS
New member
James, this thread is also an excellent resource for a simplified view into the protest/inspection process (in addition to lots of other confusing bits of the GCR.)
Marcus Miller
New member
To close the loop, he did return to racing, late last year or this year. Has run up front and won since then.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
If you guys are talking about the guy who was the subject of "A Protest Story", yes, he's in the same car and racing, presumably clean. He's a good driver. Very good. But I'll stop short of great, LOL.
As for the Paris bound protestee, it is not uncommon for the tools, the physical space, and or the conditions at the track to be inappropriate for a teardown, and arrangements have been made in the past to perform such work at other locations and at a later date. Clearly, the car gets towed to a neutral third party that both parties agree on.
It's a real shame that option wasn't presented to the protestee. In the NE, there is a Steward that is called in to act as a liason and adviser to those involved in a protest. In our case, he, I felt, spent significant time with the protestee and was presumably explaining the options available.
If I were the guy who needed to be in Paris, I'd seriously look at lodging some form of complaint that the matter wasn't handled in a manner that allowed me to defend himself.
One thing I don't like about the protest process is that it is a very shocking thing to have happen, and the clock is ticking; your answers and actions are needed quickly, and the wrong answer can prove lethal.
It's also interesting that the protester didn't list a variety of other easy to check items. He clearly felt the protestee was of a cheating mind, and there are a lot of cheap things he could have done that are far more likely to hit pay dirt than the items he listed. Some would have been obvious in the disassembly.
As for the Paris bound protestee, it is not uncommon for the tools, the physical space, and or the conditions at the track to be inappropriate for a teardown, and arrangements have been made in the past to perform such work at other locations and at a later date. Clearly, the car gets towed to a neutral third party that both parties agree on.
It's a real shame that option wasn't presented to the protestee. In the NE, there is a Steward that is called in to act as a liason and adviser to those involved in a protest. In our case, he, I felt, spent significant time with the protestee and was presumably explaining the options available.
If I were the guy who needed to be in Paris, I'd seriously look at lodging some form of complaint that the matter wasn't handled in a manner that allowed me to defend himself.
One thing I don't like about the protest process is that it is a very shocking thing to have happen, and the clock is ticking; your answers and actions are needed quickly, and the wrong answer can prove lethal.
It's also interesting that the protester didn't list a variety of other easy to check items. He clearly felt the protestee was of a cheating mind, and there are a lot of cheap things he could have done that are far more likely to hit pay dirt than the items he listed. Some would have been obvious in the disassembly.
Z3_GoCar
New member
Part of the reason I'm asking because putting my motor togeather, I'm aware of the cost of dissassembly. Pulling the head, $30 for a new set of head bolts and $180 for a top end gasket set. Pull the pistions and I need a new set of rod bolts, pull the crank and it's flywheel bolts and main bearing bolts, plus the cost of a bottom end gasket set. Pull the head requires pulling the cams that involves a $1400 special tool made by an 80 year old machinist in Bavaria. Otherwise the loads on the hollow cams will break them. So you can see a rather large bond may be required to see some of these parts.
Marcus Miller
New member
Sounds like a good deterent to protesting 
Z3_GoCar
New member
Sounds like a good deterent to protesting
That and the driver runs at the front of the ITA field in an 'R car
Seriously, though the only protest I've been witness to involved a "factory" Mazda spoiler on the rear of a first gen Rx-7. No tear down bond required for something out in the open like that. All the impounds I've been witness too just involve the drivers talking to each other, we didn't even have weights taken.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
That's not good. I'd want some ride height measurements, some airdam measurements and some weighing. And a mandatory open hood. Simple easy and cheap.
Z3_GoCar
New member
That's what I got when I ran with the ground pounders. ITE's only "rule" was run DOT rubber, no minimum weight, height, or limit to mods. Still there were other classes that did have some rules, and I don't remember any of them even being weighed either....
lateapex911
Super Moderator
I'd make a request of the drivers rep, if you have one, and have him/her talk to the Tech chair and request that stuff. It's all easy to do, and requires not a ton of work. Dick Patullo who posts here as Dickita15 works with tech all the time, and can advise better than I no doubt.
(It's surprising to see how cars sometimes disappear for mysterious reasons when they find out that scrutineering might actually look at their car)
(It's surprising to see how cars sometimes disappear for mysterious reasons when they find out that scrutineering might actually look at their car)
racer_tim
New member
With Doug's situation, I guess we'll all read it in FasTrack when it comes out. It is my understanding that Doug didn't want to "seal" up the car, and demanded that he also be present for the tear down.
All in all, an unfortunate set of circumstances, and I hope that Doug agree's that he might have made a "snap decision" that he might now regret.
Apparently this was a brand new engine that Doug had built, and was going through some teething problems with it that weekend.
All in all, an unfortunate set of circumstances, and I hope that Doug agree's that he might have made a "snap decision" that he might now regret.
Apparently this was a brand new engine that Doug had built, and was going through some teething problems with it that weekend.