LimeRockProtest Tools

J

JackH55

New member
If you have been following Jakes' protest story on the Rules and Reg section, you know that one of the problems was the lack of proper tech tools at LRP.

Here is a Challenge for you.

If you had a $1,000 budget- what Tech tools would you like to see at LRP for all races?

If you have specific prices and sources please include them in your response.

We will make every effort to have them for next season.

Jack
 
in addition to some basic measuring tools, you'll need a techie who is able to perform some pretty difficult work under favorable conditions, such as CCing the head accurately and in the case of most modern engines with non-flatop pistons: computing the piston volume. With all due respect, I'm afraid that this is beyond the scope of "field work". If the club could seal an engine and get it to a qualified shop-and have it under SCCA scrutiny while it was measured/inspected, then maybe you could get a reliable/credible result, although I,m not very sanguine. As someone who has built engines for thirty years, I'm painfully aware of the level of incompetence and bozzoism, even among professionals. (ask me how I got paralyzed sometime). In 1987(?), I and a group of ITB drivers protested another car at the NARRC runoffs. deja vu! a completely botched procedure-the car was removed to a nearby shop, the driver and his mechanic stayed there and performed the teardown/measurements with no steward/club rep present. A steward called me to tell me that the car was found to be legal. I expressed my concern with how things had been mismanaged, but told him that I would be placated if he would provide me with the cam measurements. Since they should describe a factory part, the information would not be proprietory as in peoduction or GT, so why not provide it. he agreed and mailed me the info: The plot of degrees/lift looked like a mountainscape rather than the sinusoidal shape expected-and the duration was 20 degrees less than the stock cam! obviosly total GARBAGE! What I should have done was to protest the stewards for their improper handling of the protest and gotten our rather healthy bond back, but because of the steward sending me the cam info, I honored my agreement. (the way the throttle body and compression measurements of the Honda were handled seem like abrogations of their agreement and would, I assume, have been ground for a fertile protest if the car had not been found illegal)
What's my point? I guess it's that engine mechanical protests are very difficult to handle. That is very unfortunate. Especially so because there are some cars around that seem to outperform their expectations. I believe that the club should have a plan for fielding basic engine inspection/teardowns that in respect to teardown bond cost the equivilant of replacing the head gasket. (it is my understanding that the club is responsible for the labor of measurment). It is unfair and toxic when someone has a reasonable doubt that a competitor has a "big" motor, but is effectively prevented from fielding a protest because
a) the teardown bond is unreasonably high.
B) it is not unreasonable to expect the club to not be able to perform the measurements, even if they have the tools.
c) although several respected members of the class share the same beliefs, they cannot officially participate.
end of rant phil


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phil hunt
 
Jack-

Thanks for the update. I will research and make suggestions in a second post.

But..........as a general comment, this is yet another example of how I feel the SCCA is turning the corner from what has often be derisively labeled as "the good old boys club". As one of the guys most involved in this particular protest, I think I know where the problems existed, and where they did not exist. To me, this was not a protest cloaked in secrecy and subterfuge. Tery Hanushek was very upfront with me, and while I don't agree totally with him in regards to the extent of the conclusions, we are in general agreement regarding the processes and proceedures, and as they are not entirely favorable to the scrutineers, that speaks volumes. In the days of old, it is doubtful that a Steward would admit that there was any possibility his job could have been handled better.

So, that in itself is huge progress.

I am also very pleased with the reaction of the Stewards (represented here by Jack Hanifan) who are actively seeking our suggestions and involvement in solving a situation we have highlighted.

Phil-

Your points are well taken. I can't draw conclusions of Mr Welty's capabilities in this case, as he certainly didn't have the tools to prove that he was or wasn't capable, that's for sure.

I was speaking to a CRB member who probably wouldn't mind me attributing the following quote to him....but I'll call first to be sure....

We were discussing this protest and the relative training level of techs, and whether it was reasonabe to assume that this sort of work could be carried out at the track, and I commented on the need for training along these lines. He thought that lots of tech guys would love to come to the regional meetings and conventions if they had a good reason.

It is my understanding that this sort of training isn't done as a matter of course. Perhaps there is a tech guy who might be lurking out there who could comment? Just create an identity like "Tech-mole" if you want to remain anon.!

We designed our protest in a manner that should have been track friendly. I think that the SCCA has the capability and the manpower to accomplish such protests, and it is in our best interests to assist the above "program" as it sends an important message to all the competitors.

Regarding your points-
A- I agree, but it is really a necessary item to protect the integrity of the system, and the protested.
B- Again, agree, tools and standard training should be a part of "the system".
C- I haven't thought abut this enough to comment on whether the GCR needs to make allowances for a group to protest with one member appointed "spokesperson", or not.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited October 23, 2004).]
 
You can't teach a horse how to play the piano nor should you!

expecting Tech officials to be trained in engine teardown and measurement is just absured!

either they have arrived at the track with this skill set or not, but don't expect people to learn how to be mechanics on the weekend they attend races.

Tear downs should be done by qualified experts.

At the NARRC off's there were at least 2 people who I know who could have been consulted or contracted to do this job neither was spoken to. If you want to do Brain surgury without training Please be my guest, but when a qualified Doctor was availible and you did not ask for help shame on the system..

brian Mushnick
 
Originally posted by bg43wex:
You can't teach a horse how to play the piano .....

Brian Mushnick
Click to expand...

Unless it's the famous Mr. Ed! Who's a horse of course, of course....



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
As far as cc'ing a head, the kit is quite simple: A piece of 1/4" thick clear plastic (plexi or lexan) big enough to cover the combustion chamber, with a 1/4" hole in it for adding liquid; a 10cc syringe (needs 1/10cc graduations); some grease for sealing; some kerosene.
To measure the piston volume, positive or negative, the same tools plus a dial caliper for measuring the cylinder diameter and deck height.
The procedure for the head cc's is real simple. The procedure for the piston is a bit more involved but not rocket science by any stretch. It only gets complicated when part of the piston sticks out of the clinder at TDC. In that case the piston is moved down a specific distance below the deck and the measurement taken. The added volume from moving the piston down has to be subtracted then. The only other tools required are a calculator and the correct formulas to plug in the measurements.
This is something that could be done in the field without a lot of fuss once the head is removed.
There's no way to measure a cam accurately without a profiling setup; something most engine machine shops don't even have. OTOH, valve lift and duration can be measured with a degree wheel and a 1" long dial indicator on a magnetic base before the head is removed.

------------------
Chris Foley
www.tangerineracing.com
 
Brian-

I agree that brain surgery should be practised by guys who are indeed brain surgeons, but I don't think this is brain surgery!

Compliance checks occur all over tho country at dirt track races, short track races, go kart races, even other SCCA events.

You are right...it is not fair to expect every person in tech to be trained in the procedure, but I think it IS reasonable to think that a lot of people who desire to work in the tech environment are disposed to this sort of knowledge, and might even relish the oppurtunity to learn more if the club provided the chance!

Again, I'm not talking about the ESP needed to see cam lobes, nor measuring crank offset conn rod dimensions and the like. But a protest like this was a fairly straightforward procedure that can net a LOT of very useful information.

Just the knowledge that tech has the tools and the ability to perform the task is a powerful deterent to someone who is 'on the fence' during an engine build.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
Rather than say what tools one would get for the $1000, how about a list of things that Tech should be able to check?

The list for tools that can check everything on that list might be either much less or much more that the $1000. Or, there might be a few common (inexpensive) tools that let you hit 80% of the list for, say, $200.

There are a number of basic tools that Tech has gotten out of the habbit of bringing to the track. Things like a track guage. I cannot remember the last time I have seen one used, even with it's use being mandated at nationals. (GCR 11.3.1)

Once upon a time, when I was working tech (back in the dark ages, we still used stones for hammers), we would have everything required to profile a cam, determine the CR, and measure just about any machined surfaces (Bore, stroke, bearing diameters, rod lengths, valve guide diameters, etc.) or weigh any part including flywheels with the accuracy required.

We were also equiped to do some simple fuel measurements (like Specific Gravity and alchol percentage.) That was back when fuel testing was simply.
smile.gif


So, here is a partial list of "things to be able to check".

Bore
Stroke
Compression ratio
Cam profile
Head thickness
Bore of various holes, for example
- TB's
- Carb venturies
- Intake restrictors
- Gudgeon pin bore
Wire sizes (as in wire used for springs)
Anti roll bar sizes
Caster, Camber, Toe.
Wheel sizes
Brake dimensions
Transmission ratios
Diff ratio
Diff/LSD breakaway troque.
Gross car dimensions (wheelbase, wing heigth and sizes, ride heigth, etc.)
Fuel capacity

Note that many times, the absolute, accurate measurement is not needed. If someone changes, say, the amount of cam lift, it would be obvious at .1 inches difference. Its not needed to determine that the illegal lift is .20467 over the allowed, .2 is just as illegal and all that is needed.

If something is "close", then the stewards can impound the parts in question and have more accurate measurements done.

We wouldn't need a box full of Starrett measuring tools (even though I have them downstairs), and in some cases, like displacement, we might be able to use tools like a "puffer", and get a non-invasive go/no-go indication that further measurements are needed. No need at first blush to actually rip the engine apart to get the bore and stroke. Much of the allignment checks could be done with boards, strings, a square, and a tape measure. A set of dunlop optical guages isn't required.

Anyone want to run with the list and expand/shrink it?

Please try to remember other classes than just IT cars. (I think of lots of formula car stuff, since that is where I came from.)
 
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Things like a track guage. I cannot remember the last time I have seen one used, even with it's use being mandated at nationals. </font>
Click to expand...
Actually, NNJR checked track at the July National this year, at least after the small bore GT/Prod race.

------------------
Chris Foley
www.tangerineracing.com
 
A track Gauge??

What, pray tell, would that be useful for in IT where wheel offset is free (as are spacers)and the +/- tolerances are measured in inches?

Cheers
 
Jack:
Having sold various brands of test gauges I am a bit biased. However, Starret, Mitutoyo, Sunnen and several others come to mind to begin with. The package IMHO should include a dial indicator and magnetic base, micrometers ranging from 1"-4" OD, a 6" caliper (either digital or analog), Bore gauges in ranges that are typical for our cars engines-check cylinders and bearing bores. Inaddition, I have promoted the use of the "Thumper" type device that NASCAR uses-it really works to determine legality of an engine for them. A compression Gauge and Leakdown tester would also be nice to have. There are other things but they are suited more for formal inspections in the shop rather than the track shed.

------------------
Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'99 Prelude=a sweet song
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow
 
For non-destructive suspension and chassis testing/measurements:

- Track bar (for those classes that need it)
- Transfer scribe for measuring wheels widths and brake rotor sizes
- Digital (no vernier reading errors)
calipers and linear scales of various lenghts
- Large T-square for measuring wheel offset/backset
- Large and small tape measure
- Standards against which to check all the above, or regular access to a calibration service.

I like RKramden's mindset of having tools to nondestructively test for macro changes that would lead to microinspections, using tools such as the puffer and basic cam profiles (easy in an OHC car).

Destructive testing (i.e., engine/tranny/third member disassembly). The club should be prepared to field inspect the macro items such as (but not limited to) bore, stroke, valve sizes, rod and crank journal size, rod length, flywheel diameter and material, and basic camshaft lift:

- Flashlights
- Boroscope
- Dial calipers
- Micrometers
- Magnetic base (for measurements *and* ferrous flywheels)
- Clamp-on base (for aluminum blocks and heads)
- Steel base plate
- Bore gauge
- Depth gauge
- Good quality weight scale

For detailed checks such as cc'ing the head I recommend sending the parts to a shop for inspection.

For detailed checks that require stock parts for comparison I recommend sending the parts to the appropriate dealer for inspection.

For detailed camshaft profiles I recommend sending the parts to Topeka for inspection.

Brian, I have to somewhat disagree with you in regards to your statement of required skillsets for the volunteers. As I stated in the Rules and Regs thread, the GCR (6.18.1) states, "The Chief Technical and Safety Inspector or Series Technical and Safety Inspector shall ascertain that the cars comply with the GCR, Specification Books, and Supplementary Regulations." In order to fulfill these duties, the Chief Tech Inspector must possess one of three things:

- A certain level of technical ability to perform the required inspections,
- Administrative capabilities to manage a team that does, or
- Administrative capabilities to properly impound a car and supervise its transportation to someone who does have these capabilities.

Without at least one of these three things, I believe that a Chief Technical Inspector cannot properly fulfill his duties. Please note that I am speaking generally here, as in the case of this northeast issue I do not know the details of what happened, who was involved, or what their capabilities may or may not be.

On a side note, I also believe we need to bring to the track the motivation to check cars.

GregA
 
I support the idea of using as many non-invasive estimating tools at the track as possible, as long as the protestor always has the right to choose whether to have the teardown or impounding continue *regardless* of the outcome of the non-invasive estimate. That is, if the protest bond for using the Thumper is $50, and the protest bond for pulling the head and measuring inside is $500, try the thumper first , give the protestor those preliminary results, and let him/her decide whether or not to proceed to the next level. I don't think that non-invasive estimating tools should ever be used to uphold a protest, and using such results even just to abort it should be left up to the protestor.
 
Originally posted by jc836:
Jack:
Having sold various brands of test gauges I am a bit biased. However, Starret, Mitutoyo, Sunnen and several others come to mind to begin with. The package IMHO should include a dial indicator and magnetic base, micrometers ranging from 1"-4" OD, a 6" caliper (either digital or analog), Bore gauges in ranges that are typical for our cars engines-check cylinders and bearing bores. Inaddition, I have promoted the use of the "Thumper" type device that NASCAR uses-it really works to determine legality of an engine for them. A compression Gauge and Leakdown tester would also be nice to have. There are other things but they are suited more for formal inspections in the shop rather than the track shed.
Click to expand...

What kind of accuracy does the "thumper" provide?

Is it more accurate at certain engine displacements?

It would be a huge benefit and time saver and could be used to indicate the need for "further investigation".

Anything that makes the process more streamlined is a good step.



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
To answer Jack's original question of what, how much, & where to get it:

- bore guage - 2-8" $160
- micrometer - 0-3" $250
- digital caliper - 0-6" $40 to $150
- dial indicator - $45 to $100
- magnetic base for dial indicator - $30
- clamp on base for dial indicator - $65
- tape measure
- kit for cc'ing heads - graduated cylinder $15, 1/4" lexan $50, drill bits $30 & planning - priceless.
- A half way decent digital camera for record keeping, $250
- a metric to inch-pound conversion chart & calculator $20

Prices for everything listed above from McMaster-Carr (mcmaster.com). There may be cheaper places to get it, but they have a very deep selection on measureing tools & and a very easy web site w/ prices listed. My list blows the budget a bit.

Also need to include in the budget the cost to send out all the acurate measureing tools for an annual calibration.

Matt
 
Matt--Great suggestions and practical, although I would drop the cc'ing kit.

Digital camera suggestion--EXCELLENT
 
Matt,

Good list, but, M-C is NOT the place to go for the tools.

While they do have everything, you pay for it.

You don't need Lexan for the CC kit, almost any polycarbonate will do. My local glass shop has given me their scraps for free. Also, you could use a quart of ATF in the kit.

As far as getting "top notch" tools, it's a waste of money, IMHO. For instance, there are import digital calipers that are under $15. I check them at 0, 1, 2, and 3 inches, and they are never off. Their only problem is they stop working if the get wet or filled with dirt (both likely at a track, unfortunatly). The good news is that it is really obvious when they do stop working. So, you just toss them in the trash can and get a new one out of the box. Disposable tool. Just bring a spare or two. Kind of like the Harbor Freight "racing" jacks. Great as long as they work, but when it breaks, you throw it out and buy a new one.

You also don't need to send the tools out to have them checked every year. For instance, I have a set of standards (they came with some of my tools), and I check my own tools every month or so when I am using them. The only tools I have that get sent out are the torque wrenches, and Snap-On checks them for free.

I think what is far more important than the amount spent is the ability of the person using the tools. Most of the tech inspectors I have watched are a ham-fisted bunch that I wouldn't trust to not break a hammer. I certainly wouldn't trust ANY of them with my various measurement tools.

And if they know what they are doing, they will know just how accurate their measurements are. So with a "cheap" digital caliper, they might say a measyrement is good to the hundreth of an inch (even if it is indicating to the thousandth), but when the bore is 40 over the limit, thats good enough to say it's illegal. Remember, most of the time, you are not looking for a bore thats one thou over or a lift that just a thou to large, it's the bigger stuff.

I think Greg had a good list because it started down the road in non-invasive inspection. I thing that is the way to check things and deal with the issues later.

I would add some mirrors on extending handles, a set of fealers, a good straight edge, a few good rulers of various size, an adjustable square, a scribe, some "Dykem" dye, etc.

Also add in some way of sealing the engine/trans, so the car can be used in a race, and then inspected to determine leagality. I used to bring a small can of paint in a really ugly colour to "seal" various bolts so the could not be removed. The exact colour changed from weekend to weekend. The drivers knew that if the seal was broken, then they would be assumed to be illegal.


It comes down to knowledge of the tools and skill, not the price or absolute accuracy of the tool. Having a local training program might help a lot. I learned by working in the machine shop for one of the local engineering schools (where accuracy was really important), but that option isn't available to many people.


Some random thoughts:
What about picking a class and checking ride heigth (now there is a special tool)?
How about checking transmission ratios?
 
Yeah, I knew that Mcmaster is not the place to go buy the stuff, but they are an easy reference. You do pay for that service of having it "tomorrow".

The reason for the calibration by an outside source is to cut down on the ability for a counter-protest against the tools used to measure something. Be thorough or be in question.

I agree, these tools are a pile of shiny things with numbers if no one knows how to use them. I don't have a good answer on how to deal with this problem. Some of the training is quite basic though.

Matt
 
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