National Class
- Thread starter LIRacer
- Start date
erlrich
Super Moderator
Short version Bruce; IT was intended from its inception to forever be a regional-only class.
What Greg is referring to is the fact that this topic has come up many, many times in the past, has been an extremely contentious issue every time, and (some suspect) MAY be ONE of the issues underlying the current CRB-ITAC fiasco. Definitely do some investigating, I'm certain you'll understand.
RedMisted
New member
AS is really not "IT for V8s." The preparation rules for an ITR V8-powered Mustang differ from those for an AS Mustang. But you're forgiven because on the face of things, A Sedan DOES look like an IT class.
If your car's not too old.
Not exactly a rubber-stamp entry to the world of Nationals...
StephF
New member
But an entry just the same for a lot of folks.
OP, slightly longer Cliffs notes version: there was an endless series of discussion about this very thing, mosty centering around how much $$$ it would cost to be competitve at a Nat'l level, the spirit in which the class was created, and so forth.
Bottom line, while expensive, it's no where near as expensive as it would be if we all went nat'l. Most people seem to want it to stay this way. STU will allow some folks to run nationals. And if anyone wants to be a National-only racer, well you will need to go back to the drawing board and choose a national eligible class and a car for that class.
As you may have gathered, there is an underlying political issue going on here as well, but I'll leave that to the ones who know the ins and outs of it all, because frankly, I can no longer keep up with who/what/when/where/why around here. We have so many boards, it's just plain confusing.
IT is fun the way it is. And we have enough enduro, Pro-it, restricted regionals, etc that I for one don't feel like I'm missing anything by not running nationals. Just my opinion...
OP, slightly longer Cliffs notes version: there was an endless series of discussion about this very thing, mosty centering around how much $$$ it would cost to be competitve at a Nat'l level, the spirit in which the class was created, and so forth.
Bottom line, while expensive, it's no where near as expensive as it would be if we all went nat'l. Most people seem to want it to stay this way. STU will allow some folks to run nationals. And if anyone wants to be a National-only racer, well you will need to go back to the drawing board and choose a national eligible class and a car for that class.
As you may have gathered, there is an underlying political issue going on here as well, but I'll leave that to the ones who know the ins and outs of it all, because frankly, I can no longer keep up with who/what/when/where/why around here. We have so many boards, it's just plain confusing.
IT is fun the way it is. And we have enough enduro, Pro-it, restricted regionals, etc that I for one don't feel like I'm missing anything by not running nationals. Just my opinion...
Ron Earp
Administrator
AS is FAR from being an IT-like class. When we were working on classing V8 Pont cars in ITR this misconception that "AS was already IT for V8s" came up more than a few times. Fortunately a cursory examination of the rules puts that notion to rest.
Last edited:
shwah
New member
Updated a few key points.
I agree that IT is fine the way it is. I also think it would be better if we had an opportunity to be a national class. A lot of the arguments against this were centered around the added cost (read - the requirement to fully prep a car to the rules) to compete at a national level. Many people do that now. Many others don't have to and are able to finish well.
I agree that IT is fine the way it is. I also think it would be better if we had an opportunity to be a national class. A lot of the arguments against this were centered around the added cost (read - the requirement to fully prep a car to the rules) to compete at a national level. Many people do that now. Many others don't have to and are able to finish well.
just so the OP doesn't get the wrong idea that this perspective is the consensus amongst the IT community. i believe this to be patently FALSE. so does the majority of others with an SM background.
Bill Miller
New member
To the OP, Chris (RedMisted) and Ron are right, AS is very far away from IT, in terms of prep. Aftermarket brakes, aftermarket transmissions, etc., etc. However, as Chris said, they do look like they could be IT cars (probably more than anything else out there). As Steph and Chris (chois) have mentioned, there's a belief that having IT go National will raise costs for some. It may, but then again it may not. I think Chris' highlights of Steph's post show that. To Chris (chois), pay no attention to Travis. He keeps up with his notion that SM and IT are similar, and leaves out how the folks that originally bought into SM were sold a bill of goods vis-a-vis the "$10,000 race car that could run at the front". Granted, costs did go up because SM became popular. Would it have become as popular if it hadn't gone National? No way to know. I suspect that it could have. If SM had not gone National, you'd probably have a situation similar to what you see in ITA along the East coast, people spending big $$$$ to run at the front (and large fields). What's false is to compare a spec class to a somewhat open category like IT, where you have many different options, and therefore get some cars which are better for some tracks. Getting the last bit out of a spec class costs more than it does for a non-spec class. Part's bin blueprinting gets expensive. It's also why you pay 4x - 6x more for a 'pro' SM motor than you do a crate motor from MazdaSpeed. Part of that is that everybody isn't running the same car, so you don't know if the variability is in the car, the prep, or the nut behind the wheel.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
This is true, but, there's more:
Diminishing returns comes into play.
In SM, you spend your savings fund to get teh last 2 HP, because that will be either enough to keep up with the guys who already have it, or you want to be ahead of the curve. When EVERY car is the same, 2 HP can be a deciding factor.
In IT, it's impossible to know if spending your last nickle on 2 HP will be enough to make a difference. A, it's impossible to compare, and B, you might be sufficiently ahead or behind another make/model, that it's irrelevant.
For that reason, IT build have a potential savings element. (Assuming all things being 'equal'.... same basic economics, not discussing Chevy builds vs Porsche builds)
Those who run Nationals tells us the 'cost' is having to travel and the requirement to, in a competitive class, have the quiver of tires for situations, and fresh rubber, etc on the car for every session. That presumes a Runoffs bid, or the desire to be at the top of the class, week in, week out.
IT is cheaper because you don't HAVE to travel (there IS no Ruboffs bid)...but, you CAN spend the same bucks on tires if you so choose, and in some areas of the country, running at the front of an IT field is more expensive that a nationals class...even if you are aiming for the runoffs.
SM pro motors are as little as $5000. i'd love to find a built ITA motor for $833-$1250. shit, i'm pretty sure i'll spend that on just my ECU and dyno time.....for i expect <2hp peak.
and for any of those areas where you think IT people are spending more than the national guys, that might be true for the lower competition, lesser subscribed classes....but is irrelevant to what would happen should IT go national.
and for any of those areas where you think IT people are spending more than the national guys, that might be true for the lower competition, lesser subscribed classes....but is irrelevant to what would happen should IT go national.
Last edited:
The cost question leaps past a LOT of mediating variables:
IT Goes National --> Cost Skyrocket for Everyone
No. Absolutely not, unless a bunch of qualifiers get inserted into the assertion. Ultimately, "competitiveness" has got to be considered in there somewhere. If one wants to be the biggest fish in a pond, AND the IT pond gets bigger (more competitive) because the category gains National status, then (duh) it's going to cost THOSE FISH more to maintain their dominance.
But asking the pond to stay small to maintain the status quo for individuals happy with their situations? That's bad old SCCA mentality - me, me, ME, MEEEE...!!
If Joe Racer is currently spending $25,000/year of his discretionary dough to race an IT car, he can continue to do that. If that doesn't buy him as many trophies as he's used to because the fields get deeper and tougher, that's tough ta-tas. And it's likely - I think - that a National option would siphon off the most committed ($$) of the current Regional racers, would pull a bunch of folks out of other categories (like SM did to IT), and leave the competitive equilibrium for REGIONAL IT races/series about where they currently are.
K
IT Goes National --> Cost Skyrocket for Everyone
No. Absolutely not, unless a bunch of qualifiers get inserted into the assertion. Ultimately, "competitiveness" has got to be considered in there somewhere. If one wants to be the biggest fish in a pond, AND the IT pond gets bigger (more competitive) because the category gains National status, then (duh) it's going to cost THOSE FISH more to maintain their dominance.
But asking the pond to stay small to maintain the status quo for individuals happy with their situations? That's bad old SCCA mentality - me, me, ME, MEEEE...!!
If Joe Racer is currently spending $25,000/year of his discretionary dough to race an IT car, he can continue to do that. If that doesn't buy him as many trophies as he's used to because the fields get deeper and tougher, that's tough ta-tas. And it's likely - I think - that a National option would siphon off the most committed ($$) of the current Regional racers, would pull a bunch of folks out of other categories (like SM did to IT), and leave the competitive equilibrium for REGIONAL IT races/series about where they currently are.
K
i don't think i ever said, or even implied that costs would skyrocket.
i don't think effectively splitting the class in two is a good idea.
if joe racer still spends his $25,000 to go regional racing, but now he's only racing against four people rather than the 15 he used to race against, in a much shallower field. is he still getting the same enjoyment/dollar that he used to? i doubt it.
hey, i thought splitting SM into natl/regional would do the same thing....send the guys with money up to national and leave the "regular guys" to run around and have fun with their regular cars/budgets. didn't happen.
but go right ahead and think i'm just being "selfish" to try and protect my own situation.
i don't think effectively splitting the class in two is a good idea.
if joe racer still spends his $25,000 to go regional racing, but now he's only racing against four people rather than the 15 he used to race against, in a much shallower field. is he still getting the same enjoyment/dollar that he used to? i doubt it.
hey, i thought splitting SM into natl/regional would do the same thing....send the guys with money up to national and leave the "regular guys" to run around and have fun with their regular cars/budgets. didn't happen.
but go right ahead and think i'm just being "selfish" to try and protect my own situation.
Aren't national events a bit more expensive to enter as well? I could care less one way or the other. I'm not looking for anything more than some good wheel to wheel action, and the way it stands seems to full-fill that want. What is the advantage of a national class anyways?