nhis 6 hour car counts

dickita15

dickita15

New member
The attendance was down quite a bit at the NHIS enduro this year and I would like to pick some brains. This event started as a three hour for a few years and went to 4 hours in 2005. We had been drawing 40 to 45 cars. At the drivers meeting in 05 we asked if people wanted to go to 6 hours all but 2 people at the meeting voted to go to 6 hours. This year the event at 6 hours drew something like 22 cars. The question is why.

One school of thought is that at 6 hours the local teams doing it as a lark were intimidated and the serious enduro guys did not take a six-hour serious enough to trek up to New Hampshire. This group believes the best course of action for the region is to go back to 4 hours.

The other group thinks this year was not a fair test. Entries are down at all events and this event was run at the peak of the fuel price spike and that in another year the environment could change enough to make the 6-hour popular.

So enduro guys what do you think.
 
Dick - I was considering putting together an effort this year, but there were a couple of reasons for me not attending, although I am a rookie with no enduro experience so take it with a grain of salt.

1 Gas prices were very high and this put a constraint on my budget
2. I was going to be there 2 weeks later for the double regional and it was too much back and forth for my limited budget (There is a theme emerging...)
3. Lime Rock was the weekend prior and I was working on a limited budget

My simplistic answer is there was simply too many races all within 3 weeks or so (Labor day sandwiched in between). People ran out of money and were forced to prioritize. IT has been very close competition this year so I am also of the belief people wanted to save their cars for a chance at the NARRC championship.

My other thought and its just that... By going from 4 to 6 does this exponentially increase expenses anyhow? Are more people intimidated by more time?
 
What Jeremy said. Three races in four weekends was simply too much. Couple that to non-NARRC points and I skipped the weekend to stay home.

The change from 4 to 6 hours had nothing to do with it. - GA
 
Dick,

We had planned on competing in the 6 hour event, but the following came into play for us.

2 unexpected run in’s with the wall in turn 2. :bash_1_: :bash_1_:
We had to (unexpectedly) build 2 motors and rebuild the entire car twice in just a few short weeks.
We did not want to have the 6 hour be our maiden voyage, and risk breaking early for something that I forgot to tighten (or that I over tightened)
With having spent so much time on the car I didn’t have a chance to properly prepare logistically, and recruit/organize/ train a crew. :wacko:

Like the others our participation or lack of was in no way related to the length of the event, but directly caused by our individual circumstances.

We are already discussing next years event, be it a 4 or 6 hour.

Thanks
Matt Bal
 
My perspective is seriously dorked up but I can't see the difference between a 4-hr and a 6-hr event being a deterrent. If anything, it might make it MORE attractive - more track time, increased opportunity to share a car and expenses...

K
 
The reason that me and my brother didn't do it was simply the money. However it didn't think have anything to do with the gas prices. We had actually never planned on that event from the begining of the year due to money. We like others decided to race in the NARRC series which involved high LRP prices and a trip to the Glen. Yes all events are in your yearly budget and the high expense of LRP has to be made up somewhere. The one and only event at NHIS that was not a NARRC was the 1 day regional that same weekend. (Maybe the First 1 day NHIS event ever? you may no that answer better than I) So even though the track was literaly less than 5 miles from where the cars were, we decided to save the money and go to the Glen and LRP races that were part of the NARRC series. (granted we also decided to skip the Glen in mid season and that was due to gas prices!) I am still a beleiver that in our area an Enduro is something extra. I don't think that anyone will drive up just to do the enduro. For example if you did not have the regional the next day I am guessing your car counts would have diminished even more. I would suspect that the 1 day regional had low car counts as well (I don't have these facts) and that maybe we need to look at the entire weekend format. I personally don't think that the 6HR vs 4HR vs 3HR has all that much to do with it, it's more about getting people up here for a 1 day non NARRC regional at NHIS then the same weekend have an Enduro that may generate extra money for the region. Like you said I don't think Enduro racing is a huge deal in our area and the people that due take enduro racing seriously don't want to make the long trek up here for an event that isn't as prestigious as an event like the Summit 12 Hr.

Stephen
 
Dick,

I disagree with Stephen's take on enduros (then again, many have said that I am a special case). Due to the seat time to price ratio, and the fact that my car is a mid-pack runner in the sprint races, I have funneled more of my race dollars towards enduros. It has paid Team Jagermeister back with 3 Enduro Championships. I doubt that I'll ever get a NARRC, NERRC, or NYSRRC Championship with the car I've chosen to race, but I do have the plaques to show that it can be a winner as a long distance runner. There are some out here that like how the number of enduros (and the lengths of them) have increased with each passing year. It widens the racing options to those of us at the regional level, and with better promotion, could draw more racers into our club.

Many drivers have commented that if the NHIS enduro were run on Sunday, they would do it because they didn't want to run the risk of hurting the car the day before the Regional. I can't say if that is a smoke-screen or not. My team enjoys the strategy and planning that goes into an enduro weekend. It draws more families & friends into helping out (prepping, pit wall assistance, etc). We find great satisfaction in the fact that we can flog our car for hours on end, and that she has been prepped well enough to just keeps pressing on. When I'm sitting at home watching the Rolex 24, or the 12hrs at Sebring, or any American LeMans Series Race, I can comment to my buddies that "yeah, I can kind of understand what those drivers and crew members are going through because I race in the enduro series up here in the Northeast". If you can't tell by now, I'd like to press for more enduros in the 2007 schedule. But then again, I AM a special case.

The ONLY reason that my team was not at the 6hr was because it was still in pieces on Smarty's shop floor. After turning my old race car into a Tricycle at the Pocono enduro, we decided to build a new car, and it wasn't until the Wednesday before the Fun One at WGI that it was ready to run. We hope that NHIS remains a 6hr next year, because we will be registered for it.

There is my $0.02

Regards,

Dave Austin
Team Jagermeister
ITB #1
 
I agree with Dave that if the event was held on Sunday you would have a much bigger turnout for the reasons that he mentioned.

Anpther idea I was thinking of is to maybe make the NHIS weekend a 2 day buy having a qualifying saturday AM then Having a 20LAP race that also counted as your qualifying position for Sunday then had 15Lap races sunday morning starting first thing... no practice. then do a 5Hr sunday from 1-6PM. Offer a FREE race on Sunday AM for those that work the corners for the Enduro. I think it would be great to get the rest of us drivers out on station! The region wouldn't really loose money since we only had a 1 day regional this year anyway and the idea of a FREE race (Even if it isn't really free compaired to this year) would get a lot of other people involved.

Just an Idea,
Stephen
 
Dick;

Although historically I have not been a big enduro attendee, I did run the 3 hour at Pocono in May with one other driver and loved it. I would have liked to run the 6 hour at NHIS, but, highlighting several points made in previous posts, the reasons that I decided against it were:

1. REALLY wanted to run the Cheap Date, and we go away every year on Labor Day weekend, so if I had broken during the event, I would probably have missed the Cheap Date
2. I raced the weekend before at LRP and if I had done the NHIS weekend, the "ice" that I normally live on would have become extremely thin
3. That being said, I still might have gone further out onto that "thin ice" IF the regional had been a NARRC event, and IF the regional were run on Saturday and the enduro on Sunday (Pcocono's event had a qualifying session on Sat morning, race Sat afternoon, race Sunday morning, and 3 hour enduro Sun pm - a great deal for the seat time and the number of races)

All in all, a lot of race weekends in a small amount of time, plus, running for the NARRC championship and it being a "non event" were the main reasons that I had to pass, and probably will pass next year, as well, if things stay the same. It was NOT due to the 4 hour to 6 hour change.

To maximize my "bang for the buck" this year I tried to run just double race weekends, or at the very least, 2 day events. I ran the double regional at Pocono, the Pig Roast, the Aug race at LRP, the Cheap Date, and coming up, the NARRC runoffs. The single day events are difficult to justify for me.

Sorry - forgot to sign off.

Tim Mullen
ITB 86
 
So a reoccurring theme from sprint racers that would consider running the enduro for fun is have the sprint race on Saturday so if the car breaks in the just for fun enduro it does not hurt them in the sprint race.

What about those of you who are only interested in the enduro, does it matter to you if the enduro is Sunday or Saturday?


by the way I know the LRP date change hurt the weekend attendence a lot.
 
Dick,

Here is my take:

1. Yes the 3 races in 4 weeks hurt the event count

2. The Non-NARRC Sunday event hurt counts (but we know we were accomodating out of region requests to not have NHIS weigh so heavily on the Champioship)

3. A 6 hour format is LONG. 95% of the potential cars are sprint cars doing this for fun. They don't travel for the other enduros. The lost car counts seem to have been from IT - 13 Miata's, 2 ITS cars, 4 ITA cars (of which 2 were Miata's), 1 ITC car, 1 AS and 1 SPU. 15 of 22 cars were Miata's. One would hope to attract 'real' enduro competitors but...

4. NHIS is a horrible enduro track. No breaks for the car or driver, I think that keeps the out of Region guys away.

5. No matter how long it is, the concern for drivers is real about the next day - should it be a points event. This year since it was just NERRC, it wasn't much of a factor - had that been a NARRC, maybe lower counts at the Enduro but much higher at the Regional.

I think you bring it back to 4 hours and (GULP), make the other time a Restricted Regional. Take a look at the car counts for G2 (6 cars) and G4 (3 cars). Do something creative to generate business. How about a qualifying race in the Sat AM (grid based on season points), Enduro in the afternoon, the Sunday you run 30-40 lap sprints. (Or insert your own idea here).
 
I can't think of one thing I don't agree with above...

I think the main issue is that the weekend overall needs to somehow have a more creative way of distributing out more track time for something other than the enduro to attract more people to the entire event. I really like Stephens idea the best, very creative, and I also like Andy's idea of a longer race.

When looking at any weekend and its sucess (not counting historical races suck as the the NARRC Runoffs or the ARRC) I think that you will see that most people (other than dave!) want 2 sprint races. I remember growing up a two race weekend was a "special" weekend but that seems to be more and more the norm.

If you want to look at a region that did a great job turning around an event and making it attractive look at the double regional at Pocono 06. I think their scheduling (2 sprint races w/ 3 hour enduro in 2 days) was a hit. This year I think had better turnouts than many years past...


Raymond
 
Well, this is probably skewed and here's why. Within the group that I did the enduro with (1 other driver, and 7 crew guys, 4 w/ licenses) I am the only one that has driven a sprint race this year. I purposely did not drive the Sunday sprint so we could do this race and don't feel like I missed out.

Saturday is way better for a long race than Sunday so you can go home and un-pack and recover, but remember I had no intention of driving the sprint.

Is 6 hours a factor over 4? In our eyes yes:

- not many cars car really go that long on tires. This requires significantly more equipment and pit stop planning than simply gassing up & swapping drivers.
- changing tires requires more crew
- more crew requires more people to get involved
- 6 hours is all day, not just an afternoon. When it was 4 hours food wasn't a big deal, for 6 hours its a real requirement to make sure you have it covered (I was in the car at lunchtime, I hope everyone got fed)
- 6 hours of fuel is 50% more to keep stored at the track or have to dispatch someone to go fetch
- for non-miata cars brakes are now something you need to think about
- in 4 hours you can think about 2 drivers each doing 1 stint. Can't do that for a 6 hour - either someone has a big task of driving ahead, or you need 3 drivers. More drivers means better cost distribution, but more set up and driver inconsistancies, less time per driver for practice. This isn't a big deal for people familar to the track, but it is when people are coming who've never driven there before.

Cost - yes, it does cost more. More tires, more brakes, more fuel, more crew to support. The fuel cost spike doesn't matter. We ended up using full on race fuel which was double the pump gas price. Added 10% to the whole gig.

Like Andy said, NHIS is a terrible place for an enduro. Short & choppy, hard on brakes, no time to rest, limited areas to pass. This year I think the only reason for low attrition was low car count. There wasn't anyone out there to worry about crashing into. I asked some guys from NY about going to this race when I saw them at the Summit 12. They kind of rolled their eyes and didn't want to drive 8 hours to drive the track.

Timing - for us, since we weren't concentrating on sprints, the timing was great. Pay attention to that, the 12 hours at Nelson suffered badly by only being 4 weeks after Summit this year.

Entry - I've driven lots of enduros. This is the only one that charges more for each additional driver. Why? I don't know how this affects car counts, but it sure makes everyone ask what the reasoning is.

From a stand point that doesn't care if NER loses money on the deal, I'd say go for 8 hours next year. But, I'd rather see less hours of racing so that it is somethign that can continue the following year w/o costing each of the 10 drivers entered a million bucks to fund the thing. What I'd really like is for the town of Canterbury to let Bob Bahr & us run after dark & do a twighlight race. This would allow more time for the sprints to happen. But I know better than to ask for that.

Hook up w/ the other enduros going on in teh NE and make a real series. Summit, Nelson, Pocono, WGI, VIR? There are enough races out there, that if they had a season point race, I think you'd find people skipping sprints to keep up.

Advertise it better. We got into the 12 at Summit largely because of a hand out we got while at the 24 at Moroso. Until then, we didn't even know how long the Summit race was. I think this was a problem for the Nelson 12 this year too.

I think that's a bit more than just two cents.

Matt

BTW thank's for putting it on.
 
Dick,

Apologies up front from a SM guy .... on an IT forum, but I appreciate you asking the question.

We did not run the 6 hour this year. We had run all the past 3 and 4 hour races. Couple of somewhat related reasons.

At some point (I guess 6 hours was it for me), the race becomes a bit more serious in terms of commitment - i.e. you need a fresh set of brake pads and tires instead of just what's lying around the garage, wear and tear on the car, etc. Not that I have a problem with commitment since we do a minimum of two 12 hour races each year (3 this year), but it just makes you pick and choose between the races.

That said, at some point, you just add up the plusses and minusses of each race as best you can at the beginning of the year and make your choices. I'm sure everyone has their own criteria for what makes a fun race. One of mine is the basic pit stop rules. There are a couple races in NE that I personally don't do because of this - one is the WGI 3 hour (two 5 minute stops), and the other was the 6 hour this year (3 minute stops).

This is just my own "hot button", and for a shorter race, that doesn't require a huge up front effort, it's not that big of a deal, but for us, this year, we simply chose a different race. So, even though I am a HUGE fan of the longer races, time and resources only allow me to do so many per year. The combination of the longer race, and the less than desireable rules (for me), just caused it to fall below the cut line.

Just an FYI, I did come up to crew for one of the ITA teams and had a blast.

Any word on the uniform set of pit stop rules for enduro's in the Northeast that Brian was working on a while ago?

marc
 
Well, the original thought for 6 hours was as a warm up for doing 8 hours next year.

Why 8?

Because next year is the 50th annivesary of the Little LeMans, and the very first one was also a 8 hour event. I think the region should make it a big deal. Put a LOT of effort in terms of getting sponsorship, etc. I offered to work on it, but there wasn't much interest.

But right now, I could say "DILLIGAF".

How about other formats or options?
Like two three hour sprint races.
Or 2 2 hour races, one in the AM, one in the late PM, with time to work on the cars in between.
(The concept is not to have just a 2 or three hour sprint because TRACK TIME IS KING.)

Fill the time between with qualifying for Sunday's regional races. (Formula, GT cars, etc.)
Second race might count for NERRC points.

Or should it just be a straight 3-4 hour Enduro, (optional NERRC points) and be done with it?

What else woukd make it a "Don't miss" weekend?

Here is a possible time line, assuming it is 2 sprints.

8:30 - 9:00 P&Q for the Enduro
9:00+ - 10:00+ P&Q for Small Formula and Production cars.
10:15 - 12:25 2 hour Sprint #1
12:30 - 1:15 Lunch
1:30 - 2:30 P&Q for "Wings and Things", Big Bore
2:45 - 5:00 Second 2 hour sprint race (or 2:45 - 6:00 3 hour sprint. )

Sunday:
8:30 - ? P&Q for SM, IT, SSM, cars mixed into three groups, with SM/SSM first/last
? - end of day - All the regional races, "Small Formula", Prod, Wings, Big Bore, (SM, IT, SSM)

If you break during the First Enduro, you still have 2-3 hours to fix the car and make the second race.
If you break during the 2nd Enduro, you can still get a shot at P&Q (and the race) the next day.

What do the folks paying the entry fee want?
 
Since we were in 1st place at the 4-hour mark when our engine blew, it would have been great if this year's enduro was 4 hours long. :lol:

I like the 6-hour format a lot. While this was our first enduro, I can say with confidence that our strategy and prep would have been different for just 3 or 4 hours. What I like about the enduros is the team work and strategy involved. We started planning for the enduro months and months prior, and when we heard it would be a 6-hour event, we were psyched.

Don't change a thing. 6 hours was awesome! 8 would be great!
 
My suggestion: double regional, practice and race on Saturday.
Sunday races AM, starting position based on best times from Saturday.
Lunch break probably around 1:00 then 3 hour enduro 2-5. everyone goes home early.
Enduro fee is per car and maybe equal to regional price, not $500. or $600.
Jerry
 
That is not an unreasonable suggestion if we decide to abandon a serious enduro and go back to a fun (short) one.

Also we need to watch the date choice for the returning Nelson enduro. It is rumored to be in August.
 
I think it was the timing of the event and not the duration. I would love to run an 8 hour next year! We only lasted 4 hours this year but had a blast just the same. We plan to do more enduro's next year, they are way more fun than a 20 minute sprint race. The longer the better!
 
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