numerous issues

[mazdagt3]

The following is a letter submitted to the comp. board, BOD as well as Steve Johnson.

For several months I have noticed a complete lack of effort on part of our comp. board. Time and time again I see their responses in Fastracks to member input only to hide behind the usual excuses.

For example, "the comp. board does no have time to address this issue and it will have to wait to be included in the 2005 GCR".

"Car would be too fast if classified down from one class to the other because the rules do not allow weight adjustments."

"Against the philosophy of said class to allow a certain part."

C'mon people, wake up and do something. There a many cars classed wrong, there are parts available that you refuse to allow yet there are no performance advantages, and you keep hiding behind the fact of certain rules not allowing adjustments.

I am writing as a concerned SCCA member to all, that our ENTIRE comp. board needs to step down and I call for their immediate resignation period.

We need new blood, thought and ideas to take SCCA into the next century.

With that in mind.... I propose the following.

1. Reclassification of the Dodge/Plymouth Neon from ITS to ITA. For years you have recieved letter upon letter asking for the right thing to be done.

THE CAR IS NOT FAST IN ITS. I drive an ITS car and can tell you that a Neon will never be competitive. Change the improved touring rules to emulate the showroom stock/touring rules.

Throttle restricters and weight penalties are allowed and used for certain vehicles in the showroom stock/touring rules.

Move the Neon NOW. If Neal Sapp can get a 2001 Prelude classified for SSB in the MIDDLE of the season, there is no reason you cannot make this change immediately!

2. Allow threaded collar shocks in improved touring and production. As a shop owner who constructs vehicles, I can attest that there is no difference wheather the adjusting collar sits on a perch or is part of the shock body.

This would allow members to have the chance to choose from additional manufacturers for shocks/struts for their particular car. This would be in the best interests of the club.

3. Open the showroom stock ecu rules to be exact like the touring/improved touring rules. We all know that some people unfortunately cheat. SCCA has gone on record to say that tech officials cannot police the showroom stock ecu rules effectively. That being the case, allow modifications to the original ecu within its original housing.

4. Open the brake rotor rules for showroom stock. There is no difference in braking effectiveness from one brand to the next. As long as dimensions are exact, they should be allowed to save members money on purchasing parts.

5. Decrease the opening of the throttle restrictor of the SSB BMW Z4 an additional 10mm. A comp board member got this car classified under everyone's nose. The car is too fast and has allready won nationals WITH EASE on both sides of the country.


marc cefalo
#256244

 

[ITSRX7]

You may want to hold off on that Marc. Virtually all or your IT issues have been on the table for a while. Let me get you up to date:

Originally posted by mazdagt3:
For several months I have noticed a complete lack of effort on part of our comp. board. Time and time again I see their responses in Fastracks to member input only to hide behind the usual excuses.

The 'usual excuses' are quite often proceedural or rules-limited. Currently, you have in place an Improved Touring Advisory Committee that is that 'new blodd' you are asking for. We have taken great strides in the past 6-9 months to slowly turn the ship and get us headed in the right direction.

"Car would be too fast if classified down from one class to the other because the rules do not allow weight adjustments."

The ITAC belives this IS IN FACT allowed by the rules and the ITAC has pointed it out to the CRB. They are reviewing our interpretation of the way the rule reads and will be announcing a decision soon.

"Against the philosophy of said class to allow a certain part."

You'll have to name the parts you are taliking about here. There MOST CERTAINLY ARE parts that are outside the philosophy of IT.

I am writing as a concerned SCCA member to all, that our ENTIRE comp. board needs to step down and I call for their immediate resignation period.

We need new blood, thought and ideas to take SCCA into the next century..

With all due respect, you should get more up to date on the current status of some of the issues you call out before you ask for everyone to step down. As for IT, the new blood is in place.

With that in mind.... I propose the following.

1. Reclassification of the Dodge/Plymouth Neon from ITS to ITA. For years you have recieved letter upon letter asking for the right thing to be done.

This is in process. The current weights may be a little low for ITA (2300 and 2400) for a direct class move but remember, we first need to address the fundamental point above that you CAN change a cars weight when reclassing it. I believe the CRB will be on board with this and you will see a change.

<Showroom stock suggesions deleted because I can only talk to IT issues>

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">2.  Allow threaded collar shocks in improved touring and production.  As a shop owner who constructs vehicles, I can attest that there is no difference wheather the adjusting collar sits on a perch or is part of the shock body.</font>

The ITAC has voted UNANIMOUSLY to implement this. The CRB would like to bring the Production group in line with this rule - and the Prod group I think is in line with that. I hope to see a change there as well.

Marc,

While I respect your opinion, and some of these items need to be changed - and are underway, I think calling for the resignation of the whole CRB is a little harsh - no? I get copied on ALL the letters that are IT related that go to the SCCA...did you even respond with your stance on the Neon issue when it was put out for member comment?

AB



------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

 

[Greg Amy]

Are we there yet? Can someone please add a couple of logs to the fire and turn up the TV a little bit...?

[This message has been edited by grega (edited January 29, 2004).]

 

[Knestis]

Hey, Greg - go HERE...

K

 

[Greg Krom]

I can tell you that the 2300 lb spec weight on the Neon is completely unrealistic. It is a good 150 to 200 lbs too light.

My Spec Neon weighs over 2450 with me in it (I weigh 190, only 10 lbs above the bogey). The car is a '94 ACR Sedan (the lightest available) with a minimal cage, full interior removed, very light kevlar drivers seat, etc. The only thing I have not done is remove the sound deadening, but that sure doesn't add up to 150 lbs, especially on a '94 - there just isn't much deadening material there.

I'm afraid that this bogus weight is the cause of alot of the concern that the CRB and ITAC have regarding moving the car to ITA. That makes a difference of over 1 pound per horsepower when your looking at power-to-weight ratios. Thats enough to change some perceptions.

 

[mazdagt3]

first i want to apologize for placing this topic in numerous sections. my intent was for as many members to see it. most do not surf through several sections.

i should have placed in one section only.

anyway....some feel my request for the comp board to step down is harsh.

its supposed to be harsh.

its meant to grab attention of the membership.

it certainly has gotten yours. otherwise you would not be reading down this far.

am i up to date on IT rules? not quite. going insane with the whole Z4 issue, with national racing, has taken myself out of the loop a bit.

anyway...keep writing the comp board and the advisory commitees.

send them a letter/e mail a week till the neon is moved. that's the issue i'm most concerned with and i don't even race one....

but i have a $200 one for winter driving that may just fit the bill in the future.


marc cefalo

can someone turn the heat up outside?

 

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by mazdagt3:
anyway....some feel my request for the comp board to step down is harsh.

its supposed to be harsh.

its meant to grab attention of the membership.

it certainly has gotten yours. otherwise you would not be reading down this far.

It hasn't 'gotten' my attention, it was posted on a board I read. The comments warrented reply.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">am i up to date on IT rules?  not quite.  going insane with the whole Z4 issue, with national racing, has taken myself out of the loop a bit.</font>

Then how can you write with such ferver, calling for the resignations of Board members due to lack of action when you aren't aware of said action? First, ask, then freak. Freaking is neccessary in some cases - just not on most of these.

anyway...keep writing the comp board and the advisory commitees.

send them a letter/e mail a week till the neon is moved. that's the issue i'm most concerned with and i don't even race one....

No, DON'T do that. Write one letter and be counted. Don't flood the already backed up system with foolishness. Marc, am I to assume your 1st letter is in the mail in the Neon issue?


AB

 

[RSTPerformance]

Neon people should start a spec neon class like the miata people...

Stop implying that you care about everyone and admit you only care about the neon... Then rewrite your letter.

I can't stand when people say that they are speeking for everyone in IT land, when they are only concerned about 1 friggen car. My view is that their are several cars classed wrong, they were classed wrong from the begining so you have no reason to bitch.

Those that "were" top dogs and are no longer (for example the once compedetive 1973 ITA Ford Capri that sits in our basement) well it is time you realized (like we have) that times have changed, the classes are always going to get faster, either be happy for your past sucess and move on to a new car or if you are looking at buying one of these older cars realize it isn't friggen compedetive or if it is it won't be for long. (unless it is a Volvo)

So many of the "has beens" bitch because times are changing. Address the real issue that their are not enough classes for all the cars people want to race compedetively. Do be so "into" yourself.

Raymond Blethen

This is not necessaraly the view of anyone else in RST Performance Racing. Just my outbreak of an opinion.

 

[Greg Krom]

>> Neon people should start a spec neon class like the miata people... <<

We have. So far it's going quite well in the Detroit area. The class is mostly limited to the Waterford Hills series, but others are looking at it as well.

Spec Neon debuted class in 2002 with 6 or 7 of us. By the time 2003 came along (our second season) our average entry was only exceeded by ITS, ITB and F500. We outdraw Spec Miata, ITA, IT7 and ITC.

See www.specneon.com and www.waterfordhills.com for more info.

 

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Neon people should start a spec neon class like the miata people...

Gotta tell you Raymond that I think you are way off base here. When there is a large pocket of cars like the Neon that are coming off of SS eligibility, *I* think the SCCA has an obligation to try and fit them into IT as best as possible. A nice SS Neon goes for around $3000 - that makes for a great entry level price point into IT.

Sending Neons off to spec classes in other clubs is lost membership and lost revenue. We can't keep adding splinter classes in the SCCA and continue to thrive - soon it will be 10 spec classes that are way undersubscribed.

Let's look at the big picture.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

 

[RSTPerformance]

Andy I agree the spec class was a ummmm sarcastic comment... heck we have enough people that would be interested to make a spec Audi coupe class if we wanted, but that isn't what we want. I also disagree with spec classes.

My biggest issue was that Marc and many others here write poor letters trying to hide their personal interests (neon) amoungst a broader range of issues that ALL would need to be addressed.

Changing just the Neon is such a BAD idea, it will only piss of many many other racers who havn't had their cars justifiable reclassified.

These letters should state the real issues with IT, and state SEVERAL examples. The above letter doesn't even list the Neon as an example but rather a problem. The Neon is not the problem. The problem is that cars are being classified without a chance.

From my readings of postings in these forums I see people are not interested in the well being of IT, only themselves and I personaly can't stand it.

Raymond Blethen

This again is my opinion and might not be of others in RST Performance Racing

 

[Banzai240]

Guys,

The ITAC is VERY actively working on every issue that has been mentioned lately concerning IT. You are NOT saying much that we haven't already heard or are not already considering.

Many of your intentions are good, but you've GOT to act like adults about this. Realize that these things take time. Realize that, just because YOU think it makes sense, doesn't necessarily mean that it DOES makes sense. Realize that you are dealing with human beings, who make mistakes, and have procedures/rules to follow. ACT like ADULTS!

Now, as for the Neon, this is VERY actively being worked on, as Andy has indicated previously. Again, this kind of change does NOT happen overnight. Yes, it may make sense to do it, and yes, there are those that need to be convinced that it is the right move, but it takes time to get the process to happen.

Take our word for it... just because the latest Fastrack says "no"... that IS NOT necessarily the end of the story. Besides, those things that are published are usually about a month behind what is actually happening... at least on the ITAC, so please, EXERCISE SOME PATIENCE.

We are trying, AND making progress!

All flying off the handle does is make people close up and not want to listen.

You want some change... Just stay tuned for the release of the "Stategic Plan" next month at the convention... I think you'll be suprised at what you might hear...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

 

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Changing just the Neon is such a BAD idea, it will only piss of many many other racers who havn't had their cars justifiable reclassified.

Raymond,

The ITAC is currently analyzing the classes and making lists of cars that we believe need to be researched, so I assure you, we aren't sitting here waiting for letters to come in asking for specific requests. We are attempting something that perhaps is a little new to recent SCCA history; Being PRO-ACTIVE.

BE PATIENT... there are a few things that have to get settled before others can get started...

Again, we are working on it, and you guys haven't said anything here that we aren't already WELL aware of... (well, for the most part!

)

Hang in there....

OH, and <insert explitive here> the SPEC classes, including SM...!! No offense, but give me a well balance multiple marque class ANY DAY! We need to reel these cars back into IT and stop this kind of separation and loss of cars. IT7 and others wouldn't exist today if these cars were a better fit for the mix... The ITAC knows this...

OK, discuss away!

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

 

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:


Changing just the Neon is such a BAD idea, it will only piss of many many other racers who havn't had their cars justifiable reclassified.

Raymond Blethen

This again is my opinion and might not be of others in RST Performance Racing

What is your definaition of justifiable? There is NO way every car can run at the front with just 4 classes. Know of any new cars being produced that could fit into ITB or ITC? Nope.

Given your slam of the people complaining about the BMW, I assume you would be ok with a complete re-alignment of IT that really freshened up the classes and relegate the faster ITB car to the back of the pack and the faster ITC cars to the back of that pack...

I am with you on most points. I have no problem with people having single-minded, focused agendas that suit their needs, if its the right thing for IT, it's the right thing.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

 

[mazdagt3]

wow i love it. and to think i was going to not check on this before leaving!

lets clear some things up.

i do care about each and every issue. they all affect myself directly in one way or another.

"Then how can you write with such ferver, calling for the resignations of Board members due to lack of action when you aren't aware of said action? First, ask, then freak. Freaking is neccessary in some cases - just not on most of these."

allright you got me on that one andy.

"anyway...keep writing the comp board and the advisory commitees.
send them a letter/e mail a week till the neon is moved. that's the issue i'm most concerned with and i don't even race one...."

andy, ever see the shawshank redemption? if so you'll know what i mean.

"I can't stand when people say that they are speeking for everyone in IT land, when they are only concerned about 1 friggen car. My view is that their are several cars classed wrong, they were classed wrong from the begining so you have no reason to bitch."

well ray, i am speaking for several people. i'm speaking for neons, integras, civic, rx7s, BMW's, vw's etc.

with regards to cars allready classed wrong and there being no reason to bitch, ray what would you rather. have cars take up room in the GCR and there being no one building certain models because of incorrect classification? God forbid we complain about cars classed wrong...gimme a break.

maybe we'll just let the audi guys bitch about the volvo's cause they are the only ones who deserve that right.

just because my first point was about the neon, don't jump down my throat.

"So many of the "has beens" bitch because times are changing. Address the real issue that their are not enough classes for all the cars people want to race compedetively. Do be so "into" yourself."

sure hope you mean "has beens" in a general way, if not i'd love to hear your comments.
570 288 9999 x 3
[email protected]

how am i into myself when i propose changes that affect not only cars that i drive, but other models as well?

the neon, every model out there, with the threaded collar issue, every shooroom stock car, with the ecu and brake rotor rule.

AB wrote "Gotta tell you Raymond that I think you are way off base here. When there is a large pocket of cars like the Neon that are coming off of SS eligibility, *I* think the SCCA has an obligation to try and fit them into IT as best as possible. A nice SS Neon goes for around $3000 - that makes for a great entry level price point into IT.

Sending Neons off to spec classes in other clubs is lost membership and lost revenue. We can't keep adding splinter classes in the SCCA and continue to thrive - soon it will be 10 spec classes that are way undersubscribed.

Let's look at the big picture

hmmm, can you say hitting the nail on the head?


now i really am leaving for daytona.

maybe we can stir the pot down there some.

[This message has been edited by mazdagt3 (edited January 29, 2004).]

 

[Guest]

Cabin fever, sheer boredom , silly season, there are many names for it, "the shining " was made about it. everyone east of the rockies should race snowmobiles while left coasters should be racing karts during the off season to ward off "Keyboardamous Insanous Ranthymouthamous". The only known cure is a immense flood of adrenylin into the viens and a lungfull unburned gasoline mixed with carbon monoxide while rubber dingleberrys pelt your chest. the phrase "Shut up and Drive" was coined by someone that just got his medicine im pretty sure.

[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited January 29, 2004).]

 

[mazdagt3]

well put.

now if i could just put down this keyboard.......

 

[Joe Harlan]

Let's look at the big picture

Thanks Andy....

 

[RSTPerformance]

Hi all-

I am trying to think of a way to clear my above posts up. I apologize first of all for my "has been" comments, they were a little harsh, inaccurate, and probably out of line.

I would like to emphasize that I personally am very happy with IT, SCCA, and its HARD WORKING volunteers. I personally see no reason for any changes. This is NOT because of our/my recent success in IT. I want to emphasize that we were criticized for building Audi's when we started because they were not competitive and were very expensive. We didn't build the cars to win, and never expected to win. We built the cars for fun, our enthusiasm for Audis, and to race against each other (my brother and I). We never envisioned being anything more than a top 5 car if that. Yes we are very happy with the success we have had. Because we like to improve each time (our personal goals) I admit I would probably be disappointed if our cars become out classified. Would I write letters for reclassification? Probably not, I would still enjoy racing my brother and the other people who were also "out classified." My view and feedback from the last 20yrs of SCCA racing is that observers (of your race) don't necessarily look at your overall results (after all what do you get a trophy for winning? Not much pride winning with a car that “can’t loose”) but rather your performance against the cars you are competing against. My brothers car was faster this past season (quaiffe) and he didn't get much more praise for a win than I got for a 4th.

IT has changed for the worse in recent years. The internet (forums such as these) has made it possible for the minority groups to appear bigger than they really are. This is good because views such as the Neon or BMW issues are brought to light, however I think that this is bad in the fact that IT is loosing its original intention of being an inexpensive stepping-stone into the racing world. It was originally created for a place for people to race old SS cars. It is outlined in the first page of the GCR that this class was not made to have equally matched cars, rather just a place to have fun. There is no guarantee of competitiveness.

I do agree that changes COULD be made to make IT better. Reclassification of current cars and current classes I do not feel is the correct answer. Adding another class I feel is a much better resolution. Most of the issues are ITA and ITS. There seems to be a lot of cars that fall “in the middle” and possibly a class needs to be added between them.

I have been around IT probably longer than most people in these forums, and I get frustrated because the “old days” where one car won all the time just set a goal for others to achieve. Many times if one car was dominant people (for their own pride) just omitted that car as part of their competition. I think this still happens to some degree with the IT2 race at the ARRC as well as local competitions for things such as the Mazda Throne (ITA RX-7’s in NER).

I apologize again Marc for directly insulting you. I do think you have some great ideas, as many others here, however I think that the insulting of SCCA, the BOD and other volunteers NEEDS TO STOP.
SCCA does have an obligation to classify cars, but they have NO obligation to competitively classify a SS car or any other for that matter. When racing in SS it used to be a known fact that the competitive expiration date of such car was when it was no longer eligible for SS. SCCA has never implied to anyone that it would make a SS car competitive after it was no longer eligible for the class. A SS car should be bought and built for the purpose of SS and not for the unknown future of its next classification.

In my mind there is no feasible way to achieve what the minority of IT drivers who speak here want. That is there is no way to have hundreds of cars classified and for them all to be competitive. There isn’t any road racing series in the world other than spec classes where all classified cars could come close to being competitive. Not to mention my repetitiveness in posts that certain tracks cater to certain makes/models in different parts of the country. What is fast here might not be fast there.

On a side note how many people really care about a championship or being competitive? How many people went to their regions year-end awards banquets? I think in every region you will find MOST it drivers would agree that changes could be made to make things better but most IT drivers are just here for fun and don’t really care, that’s why major changes don’t happen.

Again I hope that this is a more friendly approach to my concerns with the future of the IT community, the direction of IT, and the way issues are addressed. Please accept my apologies for anything that you may have found as a direct insult in my above posts.

Raymond “looking for a fun place to play” Blethen

PS: 7’sRacing: I don’t have cabin fever… Ice racing with the BMWCCA and Rally-cross cures that!!! I generally go out not to win but see how long I can run the car sideways

Fortunately I spun and still won!!!

 

[theracinglawyer]

Dear Ray and all the other people who have given yout thoughts on this forum, including Marc Cefalo my son.

Granted we sometimes get excited at an issue, but I have seen very little "mean spirited comments" about anyone or thing,on this forum and that is great.

For the young guys out there remember that it is your job to carry the tourch also and so we need your comments and suggestions and ideas.

America is great because we can say thing that people may not agree with, yet we have the right to do so even if we are the only ones saying it.

But you must remember that if you are not willing to take a leadership role than you must live with the decisions you let other people make for you.

My thoughts : you must have drivers on the decision making Boards. And when a persons time has come that they are only a warm body filling a chair they must be replaced with people who know and care about the subject they will make decisions about.

You fellows and Ladies can take it from there.

We're off to the 24 Hours of Daytona, maybe the exhaust fumes and smell of Rubber and the drunks will enlighten us further.



------------------
Love "the commander"
Mike Cefalo
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN