Quick !!! While the stockboys are still mopping up the mess in the BMW aisle...

J

JohnRW

New member
As previously discussed, here's the link on the NESCCA site for the recent NEDiv Roundtable presentation on guidelines for a Nat'l rules set for enduros for 2007 and beyond:

http://www.users.fast.net/~nescca/endurorules.htm

But before you read that, read this (switch to 'your mother' tone of voice):

We're looking for input from NEDiv racers. If you're from CENDiv or SEDiv or SoPacDiv etc., go start your own discussion somewhere else. We're looking for input from intelligent people who will take the time to consider the subject, who have a stake in the game and who will conduct a thoughtful discussion without degrading it into a hair-pulling, chest-pounding goat rodeo. Conflicts of interest are OK since, in our world, "lack of a conflict of interest" = "complete lack of interest". "Stake in the game" means that you're an active enduro participant, as either a driver, official or organizer. If the closest you've been to an enduro is watching Sebring on TV, go away.

Some items you'll look at and say "Huh ?", but please ask and wait for an answer before letting your head spin around. You might have to wait a day, or a week. You might not even get the answer that you want. Get over it. If you're really that interested, you'd have been at the Roundtable and would have gotten an immediate answer. The 'gang of four' spearheading this (listed on the cover of the presentation) are more than capable of defending these position but we've always wanted an open process since we don't think we have 'all the answers'. But...the discussion must be in a polite, thoughtful manner. Like any official correspondence to the CRB or ITAC, if we don't know who you are, then you don't exist. Play nice. If not...well...you know the old saying - "If your phone ain't ringing, you'll know it's me."

None of this caused any major conflagrations or fist-fights at the Roundtable, when presented to drivers, staff or organizers. It led to a good discussion, and triggered further research and discussions that are underway now.

"Competition" issues masquerading as "safety" issues will be beaten, burned and buried.

Next up will be a set of 'Recommended practices'...but let's just get thru this part first.

Send your comments to one (or all...) of the named 'gang of four' The preferred email victim is Chuck Allard (he volunteered...really...).
 
Since I don't qualify based on the criteria above, I'll stay out of the fray but some quick notes from someone wiht a stake in the bigger enduro picture?

** Should have a minimum fuel tank size for "shorter" events, too - if there's going to be one for "longer enduros." Someone might try to drive through that loophole.

** I'm not sure how I'd interpret "opposite side or end of car." If the filler is on the right rear, can I work on the left rear? What is it you intend?

** I still wrestle with FCY/pit closure and paddock access rules. I understand that these are "competition" issues and an argument can be made that they need to be managed by each region, in the supps, but they are ostensibly about safetly. It seems to me that, like flag meanings, it would enhance safety if everyone used the same procedures, so reactions are conditioned rather than puzzled over.

Thanks again, Gang of Four, for working on this. Here's hoping that standardized practices spread beyond NEDiv.

K
 
Kirk I actually think you do qualify as a participant.

My historical position is well know as being a minimalist concerning rules and I am sure some groan when I speak up, but here goes:

I do not believe there is any evidence that shows we need to limit the length of driver stints.

I am deeply concerned about the driver needing to be out of the car and the car shut off during refueling. By not allowing the driver change during the refueling process you will be forcing the drivers to rush the process of belting in, particularly with air vent, radio, drink bottle and so on that need to be hooked up. When allowed the full two minutes to do the driver change I am more confident that drivers will be safely belted in. I think the safety risk is more from hasty belting than the fire risk. I am also somewhat concerned about all the push starting that we may be having in trying to restart the cars.

I am surprised the person manning the bottle must be in full Nomex. That is a standard higher that the pit marshals and fire rescue people who we usually expect to save us.

Please do not specify in the series rules or GCR where any penalties are served, and for gods sake not two different locations for two different kind of penalties. How are we supposed to have an official in each of 44 pit boxes and how does the driver know where to serve the penalty when he sees the black flag.

See I told you some would groan

Dick

Ps and yes John I will also send this to Chuck
 
We do not run the whole series, but I generally work 1 event and run 1 event per year... So I guess I can respond with my opinions....

Short vs Long Enduros slide 3:

Why have a different minumum pit length??? I would be in favor of having consistant rules and just have 2 minutes for both.

Why allow a different amount of fuel in pit lane??? Limiting fuel is for safety reasons isn't it?
what differences make the rule different for each event?

As mentioned before I am in favor of consistant rules for long and short enduros. If we need a max driving stint length I would support no more than 3 hour stint +/- 1 lap for both long and short enduros. But as dick mentioned do we need a limit???

I always thought that thier was a maximum fuel cell size of no more than 10% larger than stock tank, however when reading the GCR I found that you can have any size that you want... I would stay consistant with the "normal" GCR rules on this, however that leads us to seeing people show up with 50 gallon cells... I see the reason for the rule, and would just make it a cnsistant rule for both long and short enduro's. In addition I would limit someone to a maximum of one 25 gallon fuel cell. If you read the GCR section 19 you will also notice that it is permited to have more than one cell. Thus as you have written the rule I would think I can argue that having 2 25 gallon fuel cells would be legal provided I figured out a way to meet all the other requirements.

Fueling: Slide 4

Same comment as above: Why allow a different amount of fuel in pit lane??? Limiting fuel is for safety reasons isn't it?
what differences make the rule different for each event?

Be more clear about the 1 minute time penalty for spils larger than 9". IE: is it a stop and go in pit lane penalty or is it a penalty on the final results? - OK you fixed that on the Infractions slide!!!

Fire Bottle: Slide 5

"Counts as crew member if over the wall" I think that the fueler MUST be over the pit wall. A) I see safety issues having the person with the bottle need to react and get over the wall if an incident were to unfortunatly happen. B) Unfare advantage to someone with the filler neck on one side of the car vs. the other as you could work it so you have an additional crew member over the wall and still be legal.

Infracctions: Slide 8

I think all penalties should be "served" at the Black Flag "pit box."


Thats all I got!!! even though I wrote a novel, I think you all are doing a great job!!!

Raymond
 
I am surprised the person manning the bottle must be in full Nomex. That is a standard higher that the pit marshals and fire rescue people who we usually expect to save us.

[/b]
Click to expand...


I agree with Dick on this issue...

Raymond
 
I'll add my bit.

Those 9 slides look great. Covered a lot of ground in a very concise presentation. Well done. Pretty obvious that although it could have been roughed out in the bar, someone took the time to put it together in a format that would be well recieved.

Here's my thoughts on it all:

Short enduros - consider having a mandatory stop where the driver must get out & get back in regardless of fuel. This goes back to making it easier for a rookie enduro guy to have a chance. In a long one, its just tough cookies, but for any race where the organizers want to attract new blood this might help.

Short Enduros - if you have a max tank size for the long ones, why not just carry this over to the short ones?

Fire Bottle - Pin should be pulled

Fire Bottle - Fireperson needs to be nomexed - That person needs to have the PPE that will allow them to get right on top of the fire. Period. This is potentially more dangerous than anything else that gets done at the track, it is specialized to enduros, the nomex requirement is not hard to fulfill, lets not cut corners. Consider including an additional requirement of a balaclava regardless of helmet. The skin on the underside of your chin is pretty exposed (and tender) w/ a suit & full face helmet. It is also an area likely to get burned if you were to be near a fire at waist level. Nothing hurts like a 3 degree burn.

Long sleeves on crew? Not a requirement, pain in the ass on a hot day, doesn't gain you that much unless you start defining what kinds of materials you must wear (no rayon, nylon, 100% cotton only etc)

Infractions - be clear on what will get your hand slapped as well as the requisit punishment.

Driver stints - I've seen some pretty cooked guys coming out of cars. No need for any stint longer than 3 or 3 1/2 hours. Might want a minimum time out of the car between stints too.

Number of fuel cells - be clear on this - can you or can you not have an auxiarly fuel cell. Just be clear about it one way or another. Does this requirement cover cars in classes like SPO or ITE where its a free-for all anyway?

Modifications to fuel filler necks - some classes allow the thing in the filler neck that keeps a diesel or leaded gas pump nozzle out to be removed (I can't come up w/ a name for it). Consider allowing this in all classes. I know this may sound like asking for a break using the "safety" out, but here's why I'm bringing it up. No one wants to stop for very long. By allowing things like dry breaks & overhead fueling rigs and this mod, you allow people options to get the fuel into the car quickly. This keeps them from using up the minimum time just watching fuel pour through an hour glass. Keeping the fuel flow from being the limiting factor, people will have more time to attend to the important stuff, like not spilling, or getting the driver in right. Plus its just one less thing to have to police.

Lights - be clear about how high lights can be mounted & what can be and not be done w/ stock locations - ie can you replace old crappy OEM sealed beams w/ something better in the stock location? Be clear that rear window tint is allowed, maybe even require it.

Have a comment about high pressure air bottles in the pit, just remind people how dangerous they can be if they are not tied off right.


Is it worth coming up w/ a list of "don't forgets" for the people running the event? I'm much less versed on this side of things, but it might make a new host's race go better.

I imagine I've typed enough for now.

Matt
 
Great presentation and great comments by everyone so far. And Kirk, you most certainly are a participant. Summit Point is a NE track!

My thoughts, which are consistent w/ a lot of what has already been said, are this:

Fuel stops - same minimum duration regardless of length of race, one mandatory (regardless of actually putting gas in the car or not).

Driver stints - again, same regardless, probably 3 hours

Cell size - again, no distinction

Amt. of fuel in pits - no distinction

Overhead rigs / dry breaks - torn on this one, certainly benefits those w/ more resources

Fire person - Needs to be over the wall, and count as a crew member. Otherwise, you give an advantage to those cars w/ the filler neck on the pit wall side. Once fueling is complete, can function as a crew member and work on the car. If not allowed to work on car, don't count as a crew person. Full nomex probably not required, but I'm not opposed to it.

Working on cars - Not during refueling

Over-the-wall crew - Long sleeve shirts are probably a good idea, but I don't the need to mandate them. What I sould like to see, is eye protection for anyone working on the car (Kirk et. al. know why I support this). Gloves are also a good idea, but again, don't know if they need to be mandated or not.

Jack stands - specify how many (e.g. one for each wheel in the air) As a side note, are air jacks allowed? If so, do they constitute a 'jack stand'?

Penalties - all served at Black Flag


Any issues w/ grounding of fuel containers / overhead rigs?

A big :happy204: and :023: to those that put this together!
 
As the seasoned veteran of one enduro ... :rolleyes:

Why allow overhead fueling rigs? Are they more safe than dump cans or jugs & funnels?

If we're going to mandate a minimum pit stop time, why so short? 90 seconds doesn't seem like much time to add 25 gallons of fuel and change drivers. It seems to me that if you're mandating minimum pit stop times, you want people to be relaxed and less likely to make mistakes. Just as a ballon, why not make them 5 minutes? If everyone is in the same boat ...

I'm looking forward to more enduros and I really appricate the effort that goes into organizing one!

Thanks!
-Kyle
 
Since I run Summit 12 hour and Nelson 12 hour I was hoping to get a few words in despite being from Cendiv.

I agree with Matt on most of his items with a few exceptions (very nice list Matt!). :023:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Number of fuel cells - be clear on this - can you or can you not have an auxiarly fuel cell. Just be clear about it one way or another. Does this requirement cover cars in classes like SPO or ITE where its a free-for all anyway?”

My thought …limit it to 25 gallons that solves the problem of is it a fuel cell or is it a surge tank or a ????.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Driver stints - I've seen some pretty cooked guys coming out of cars. No need for any stint longer than 3 or 3 1/2 hours. Might want a minimum time out of the car between stints too.”

My thought… When was the last time someone fell asleep at the wheel of an endurance car? :015: Part of the endurance is knowing when to change drivers. I don’t think anyone has gotten hurt because they drove 4 hours….they just got slower…don’t see the need to regulate this. If you have a guy that is for 1 hour and isn’t use to it could be a problem too…. I would be more worried about the crew not the drivers!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Lights - be clear about how high lights can be mounted & what can be and not be done w/ stock locations - ie can you replace old crappy OEM sealed beams w/ something better in the stock location? Be clear that rear window tint is allowed, maybe even require it.”

My thought… On the first part about lights…absolutely spell it out. On the rear window tint, say you can do it but don’t require it, it may not be needed or desired on certain cars.

One last comment , length of fuel stop should be 3 mins. This gives the guys with the dump cans and funnels time to get it done right…no rushing
_______________________________________________________________________
I thank all of you for your hard work and caring enough to want to come up with a standard set of rules so we can build one car to meet everyone’s rules. :smilie_pokal: If I can be of any assistance please let me know.


Thanks,

Roland Hahn
 
Question about the series...

Are points awarded to a team name or to certain drivers? My understanding is that it is for a team name. If so how are the points actualy awarded and what drivers are awarded the trophie at the end of season???

Here is an example that brings up my questions...

Team Name: RST Performance Racing

Pocono Enduro: 1st Place Drivers; Raymond Blethen IV & Stephen Blethen

NHIS Enduro: 1st place Drivers; Stephen Blethen, Michèle Mouton & Hans Stuck

Nelson Ledges Enduro: 2nd place Drivers; Raymond Blethen IV, & Ray Blethen III

Watkins Glenn Enduro: 3rd place Drivers; Raymond Blethen IV, Stephen Blethen & Ray Blethen III

Thanks for any insight to the awarding of points/trophies...

Raymond
 
Raymond,

Bob Smart and I have won the Enduro series in 2003, 2004, and 2005 for ITB. For each of those years, we received one plaque with our photo, team name, driver names, and car class on it. (A Very nice plaque I might add). It is my understanding that it is based on the Team Name, but then again, it has only been Bob and I for the past 3 years in the same car. We have been rotating the plaques between households. Marie asked for the plaque info at the end of the year, so with all of your different drivers in the one car, you could simply give the team name, car photo, and car class for the engraving!!

As for the discussion:

I agree with the one pitstop mandatory idea. For the shorter enduros with just one driver (me at NLedges for a 2hr race), it gives the one driver a chance to rest a bit, readjust him/herself in the car, and rehydrate in case they don't have a camelback on board (great idea for enduro-ers). It then comes down to the preparedness of the race car to make it to the end. I'd say that 95% of people in these races (12hr race excluded), are only doing one refueling during the race anyway. More mandatory stops negates the need for larger cells (the ONE 12hr race excluded) as well. The fewer the "rules", the funner the run.

I agree that cars shouldn't be worked on while refueling is occuring. That's just being smart. I have seen a few cases where a crew member went onto their back to reach under a car while fuel was going in. Most drivers / race teams sit and wait for time to expire on the pitstop.

I don't think its necessary for seat time limits. I agree that tired drivers are slower drivers. We are all Big Boys and Girls here. We know when its time for a driver change. It reminds me of the drivers meetings at the NHIS races. "We believe that we should minimized the rules in the Enduro - we are all adults here."

Keep the rules to a minimum. The fewer the "rules", the funner the run. Bob and I look forward to defending our title again this year. And if anyone out there wants to hang with our team to get the feel for enduros, you can find us at the Hoosier (and now Toyo !!) trailer!!

PS - Ray, we never went skiing this year !!

Dave Austin
Team Jagermeister
'03, '04, '05 ITB Enduro Champions
 
I'm going to revive this and see how things have progressed on this front. I have a fantasy that this initiative, the USERA effort, and 17 other factors will all align this winter to create a really substantial series-ish thingie comprising all of the eastern-most 12 hour races, from New York to Florida...

K
 
Kirk,

I say we try to include this series in our enduro efforts in the future. There won't be any tire shortage amongst these two ITB teams :023: ......lol
 
Fuel Dry breaks should be allowed. They are not that expensive and I just outfitted both of my Neons with them. It also makes it much safer so everyone. AT Summit the Team next to us spilled all over the place every stop.

Fuel rigs. NO I can understand the cost factor although I own one and its collecting dust.

There should be no mandatory stop time or stops. Its your own safety and you as a competitor need to be careful. Doing a quick safe pitstop is a reward for having good teamwork and shouldn't be taken away from those that have it.

Fire extinguisher. Yes by all means that person needs to be in a fire suit. While fueling a car at Rolex in 1999 I was the fueler and the fuel hose failed and sprayed myself and the fire extinguisher crewman. My own Team never had any spills or any issue's in Motorola/ Grand Am Cup. Safety of the crew should come FIRST.

Time limits on drivers NO. If you can't handle the seat time change drivers. KNOW your limits.

Fuel Amount in pit lane. I dont see how this matter's. Buy a 55 gallon drum and store it on pit lane. If you fill the jugs follow a simple rule. Full fire gear for fueler and fire crewman while filling jugs on pit lane. This is a Grand Am rule.

Penalties should be served in your pit stall

Fuel Tank follow current SCCA rules. This limits costs.


Crew shouldn't need long sleeves. No work should be done on car when fueling. Driver changes should be allowed while fueling. Afterall they are both in full suit's already.

Lights. Limit the number and size of lights.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top