Roebling Carnage
- Thread starter JeffYoung
- Start date
Mike Spencer
New member
Please include a little more than just a number. If my car had been ready, I would have BEEN there!
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Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)
I apologize for getting OT on the second reply Jeff, but were there any injuries?
[Edit: Okay, so I wasn't first.]
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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited April 26, 2005).]
[Edit: Okay, so I wasn't first.]
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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited April 26, 2005).]
JeffYoung
New member
No problem.
Yes, one driver went to the hospital but I believe it was relatively minor.
Wreck went like this. We had a big field (50 cars I think). I started 20th. In turn 1, a 2nd Gen RX7 got wide and in the grass, apparently didn't lift and shot back across the track at a 90 degree angle.
He hit me first, right on the left rear wheel, and spun my 270 degrees and I slid off driver's left. When he hit me, he stopped enough that he got hit head on in the passenger door by Jay Miller's 280z -- a VERY hard hit. Jay had nowhere to go. Another 1st Gen RX7 likewise had nowhere to go and piled into Jay's car. A fifth car, a 190E, got significant damage to the front but not sure how.
I road to medical in the ambulance with Jay and the perpetrator, I mean driver of the 2nd Gen RX7. Jay is ok, just sore (his hit pushed up the hood like in those Nascar in car vids, moved the transmission tunnel about 20 degrees to the right and did other nasty things to his car). I'm sore, but okay (hit sheared the lower control arm in half, bent the strut in half and knocked the strut tube out of the welded knuckle).
The driver of the 2nd Gen RX7 complained of pain and numbness in his left arm. He went to the hospital and got checked out and was apparently ok. The other involved drivers were ok too.
Jay was wearing a Hans device and believed it helped him. I was not wearing anything and am very sore, but my hit was nowhere near as hard as Jay's.
Jay's car is done. The 2nd Gen RX7 appeared done. The 1st Gen RX7 appeared done. The 190E was fixable at the track. My car is going to take some work over the next week to get ready for VIR.
I know it's racing, but geez...that's a lot of carnage. Starts are dangerous.
Sunday's ITS/ITA/IT7 race saw at least two cars with body damage, but they continued on.
All in all not a pretty weekend for us IT types. I think the SMs ran cleaner races.
Yes, one driver went to the hospital but I believe it was relatively minor.
Wreck went like this. We had a big field (50 cars I think). I started 20th. In turn 1, a 2nd Gen RX7 got wide and in the grass, apparently didn't lift and shot back across the track at a 90 degree angle.
He hit me first, right on the left rear wheel, and spun my 270 degrees and I slid off driver's left. When he hit me, he stopped enough that he got hit head on in the passenger door by Jay Miller's 280z -- a VERY hard hit. Jay had nowhere to go. Another 1st Gen RX7 likewise had nowhere to go and piled into Jay's car. A fifth car, a 190E, got significant damage to the front but not sure how.
I road to medical in the ambulance with Jay and the perpetrator, I mean driver of the 2nd Gen RX7. Jay is ok, just sore (his hit pushed up the hood like in those Nascar in car vids, moved the transmission tunnel about 20 degrees to the right and did other nasty things to his car). I'm sore, but okay (hit sheared the lower control arm in half, bent the strut in half and knocked the strut tube out of the welded knuckle).
The driver of the 2nd Gen RX7 complained of pain and numbness in his left arm. He went to the hospital and got checked out and was apparently ok. The other involved drivers were ok too.
Jay was wearing a Hans device and believed it helped him. I was not wearing anything and am very sore, but my hit was nowhere near as hard as Jay's.
Jay's car is done. The 2nd Gen RX7 appeared done. The 1st Gen RX7 appeared done. The 190E was fixable at the track. My car is going to take some work over the next week to get ready for VIR.
I know it's racing, but geez...that's a lot of carnage. Starts are dangerous.
Sunday's ITS/ITA/IT7 race saw at least two cars with body damage, but they continued on.
All in all not a pretty weekend for us IT types. I think the SMs ran cleaner races.
Hammer
New member
There was an IT7 #41 that is a total loss. There also was a ITS blue 240z that took multiple hits and had to be moved on a flatbed. There also was a ITS Mercedes that has its right front corner pushed back into its tire. It was able to drive off on its own but the damage did not look good. There may have been other cars involved I did not see after the race. That was my first red flag since six years ago at school. As we all know you do not win the race in the first turn.
The Sunday race also had contact at the start in turn one.
The ITS/ITA/IT7 group made the Spec Miata's look like angels this weekend.
The Sunday race also had contact at the start in turn one.
The ITS/ITA/IT7 group made the Spec Miata's look like angels this weekend.
Mike Spencer
New member
This has not been a good year for Roebling! I posted details about it back in February, but there was a "real" red flag during one of the sessions at the double school there. An ITA Miata lost the LF wheel (suspension failure) coming on to the front straight and backed into the trees across from Pit-In. Fortunately, he wasn't hurt either. In fact, they got the car repaired (somewhat) and he took his starts on Sunday.
AMEN!
** EDIT: quoting twice in one message is harder than it looks!
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Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)
[This message has been edited by Mike Spencer (edited April 26, 2005).]
chuck baader
New member
I need to apologize to the spec 7 racer I T-boned at the start of race one/turn one Sat. I thought you were going to save it, but....you know the rest
Looked for you in the paddock but couldn't find a spec 7 with a BMW bumper imprint on the passenger door!
Anyway, in spite of the carnage, I had a great time and am looking forward to seeing all the same suspects at the Alabama Region Double SARRC in July. Chuck
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Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar
Anyway, in spite of the carnage, I had a great time and am looking forward to seeing all the same suspects at the Alabama Region Double SARRC in July. Chuck
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Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar
Tristan Smith
New member
I was the last to hit anyone in the melee. But it was just a soft thump. I got a little dimple or two in the fenders, and missing some paint, but after seeing the carnage, I have no complaints. It was a white ITS RX-7 that I hit. Not sure if it was "JapanTrix" car that started the whole mess. By the by, I noticed it was a "Japantrix" RX-7 that was in the Sunday first turn mess too. A white and yellow one. And Chuck, I was behind you at the start of the Sunday race. What caused everyone to lock up the brakes on the start BEFORE we even passed the starters stand? A lot of really stupid driving on both days first corners.
Did anyone get results for Sunday? I know after I got shuffled to the end of the pack avoiding yet another car in the first turn on sunday's race, that I finished near the tail end, but never saw any final results. Anyone tell me where I finished? Thanks for all the close door to door SAFE/SMART racing that went on on sunday's race after that first corner.
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Tristan Smith
Buffalo's Southwest Cafe
ITA Nissan 240sx #56
[This message has been edited by Tristan Smith (edited April 27, 2005).]
Did anyone get results for Sunday? I know after I got shuffled to the end of the pack avoiding yet another car in the first turn on sunday's race, that I finished near the tail end, but never saw any final results. Anyone tell me where I finished? Thanks for all the close door to door SAFE/SMART racing that went on on sunday's race after that first corner.
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Tristan Smith
Buffalo's Southwest Cafe
ITA Nissan 240sx #56
[This message has been edited by Tristan Smith (edited April 27, 2005).]
chuck baader
New member
TS, from my vantage point, I saw a car up pack take to the grass past sound and a bunch of others hit the brakes....couldn't see the reason/s why.
Don't know where I finished Sunday either, as I was home at 7:00pm and did not stay for the results. I assume they will be posted to MyLaps.com shortly...after all the protests are heard and the results certifyed. Chuck
Don't know where I finished Sunday either, as I was home at 7:00pm and did not stay for the results. I assume they will be posted to MyLaps.com shortly...after all the protests are heard and the results certifyed. Chuck
Ron Earp
Administrator
I did not see the entire wreck event on Saturday. But, I did learn a lot in the events that took place afterwards regarding how the SCCA protests work and procedures that are followed. I can only offer one comment on that:
If something happens of this nature during a race, and you saw it happen, you should bear witness to the event and take the time to respond to documentation requests by others involved in SCCA legal procedures.
Apparently three cars were destroyed and two damaged in an incident that should not have ever happened. Obviously I'm biased since I own part of a damaged car, but some folks lost their entire car. Sure, it is just racing and part of the game and we accept that. But it appeared that it was due to a driver who had some difficulty understanding some basic concepts of race starts, when the race starts, and what to do when your car departs the track. I think the penalty would have been higher had Jeff and Jay had more support with the protest procedures and, given what I've been told by four drivers, would be completely in line.
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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS
If something happens of this nature during a race, and you saw it happen, you should bear witness to the event and take the time to respond to documentation requests by others involved in SCCA legal procedures.
Apparently three cars were destroyed and two damaged in an incident that should not have ever happened. Obviously I'm biased since I own part of a damaged car, but some folks lost their entire car. Sure, it is just racing and part of the game and we accept that. But it appeared that it was due to a driver who had some difficulty understanding some basic concepts of race starts, when the race starts, and what to do when your car departs the track. I think the penalty would have been higher had Jeff and Jay had more support with the protest procedures and, given what I've been told by four drivers, would be completely in line.
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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS
Tristan Smith
New member
Ron, your statement seems to imply that people didn't step up and be witnesses. Is that the case? I know I filled out paperwork and appearred before the SOMs. I did so because I was asked to. I am not sure I would have had I not been asked because I think it is up to the parties that are protesting to gather the needed materials in their protest. Elaborate on your post.
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Tristan Smith
Buffalo's Southwest Cafe
ITA Nissan 240sx #56
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Tristan Smith
Buffalo's Southwest Cafe
ITA Nissan 240sx #56
JeffYoung
New member
Tristan, I'm glad to hear that and thanks for doing it. It amazed me how much time that process took and I appreciate you participating.
We (Jay, Ron and I) had heard that several drivers closer to the accident did not want to sign witness statements. That's fine, I have less of a problem with it than Ron although I understand Ron's point. But that is the basis for what he was saying -- we were told that someone from Jay's team had a approached a couple of drivers about signing statements and they declined.
Thanks again for going before the SOM. Not what you want to do after a long day on the track.
We (Jay, Ron and I) had heard that several drivers closer to the accident did not want to sign witness statements. That's fine, I have less of a problem with it than Ron although I understand Ron's point. But that is the basis for what he was saying -- we were told that someone from Jay's team had a approached a couple of drivers about signing statements and they declined.
Thanks again for going before the SOM. Not what you want to do after a long day on the track.
JeffYoung
New member
I do want to add a few points, in case the driver of the 97 is reading this (I never got a chance to talk to him other than for a minute or two in the ambulance, although that is not really anyone's fault as I think he spent the night in the Hospital).
The intent of the protest was not payback, or to "get" the driver who caused the accident. The intent was to make the driver of the 97 aware that keeping his foot in it during an off track excursion and coming back on track completely out of control -- especialy during a crowded start -- is not acceptable. I haven't been at this long, but each of the 4 times I've raced at Roebling, someone has gone off driver's left at turn 2, and each time they collected the car, LOST positions and came back on track under control.
This time, it was apparent to all of those involved that the driver of the 97 didn't do that, tried to maintain his position in the grass, and five cars got damaged/destroyed as a result.
I hope the 97 comes back to the track and I look forward to racing with him. I don't wan t to run anyone out of the sport. It's more fun when there are more good competitors out there.
But I never want to get out of the car, look around and see 5 wrecked cars because of something I did, and I would hope that others race with that same philosophy. That's why Jay and I filed the protest. We just wanted the 97 to know that what he did was not acceptable. In my view, the 5 race probation is enough to get his attention and I agreed with it. If he does it again, the SOM have the ability to take stronger action.
Enough said....on to VIR.
The intent of the protest was not payback, or to "get" the driver who caused the accident. The intent was to make the driver of the 97 aware that keeping his foot in it during an off track excursion and coming back on track completely out of control -- especialy during a crowded start -- is not acceptable. I haven't been at this long, but each of the 4 times I've raced at Roebling, someone has gone off driver's left at turn 2, and each time they collected the car, LOST positions and came back on track under control.
This time, it was apparent to all of those involved that the driver of the 97 didn't do that, tried to maintain his position in the grass, and five cars got damaged/destroyed as a result.
I hope the 97 comes back to the track and I look forward to racing with him. I don't wan t to run anyone out of the sport. It's more fun when there are more good competitors out there.
But I never want to get out of the car, look around and see 5 wrecked cars because of something I did, and I would hope that others race with that same philosophy. That's why Jay and I filed the protest. We just wanted the 97 to know that what he did was not acceptable. In my view, the 5 race probation is enough to get his attention and I agreed with it. If he does it again, the SOM have the ability to take stronger action.
Enough said....on to VIR.
Ron Earp
Administrator
Hey Tristan,
My comments were based on what happened to me in the paddock while loading the Z onto the trailer.
Jeff had to go to "court" and to handle documents and I spent the time trying to round up tools and help to get the non-rolling car on the trailer. I really appreciate the help that was provided to me by numerous people - I am sorry I did not get everyone's name but please, if you need help for anything please ask - anything I have is yours.
While I was rounding up people/tools/materials I had a number of people, some in driver's suits and some out, talk to me and say they saw the wreck and they'd be happy to bear witness to the event if needed. About that time Jay's wife came by and picked me up so I could help her delivery money for Jay and Jeff's protest and to pass at some witness sheets (that was when I saw you Tristan).
Unfortunately, I'm new to this and don't know that many people, so the folks I talked to just a few minutes before I could not identify to help out with the process. Plus, I just didn't know the process and if I knew it was important to have witnesses I would have made sure I knew where those folks were that had talked to me 30 minutes earlier. I figured in car video was about all the witness one would need, but Jeff informed me that it had to be statements from drivers.
In any event, there could have been many more witnesses to the event to provide a more accurate description of events. Tristan, I'm glad you signed yours and put it in, but had I known more about the process I would have had sheets on my person when Jeff/Jay decided to protest and could have given them to people when I talked to them.
Like Jeff, I'm not out to get people but dang, having just gone through school I learned, along with the rest of folks, that you don't keep your foot in the gas when you go off track. And trust me, last time at CMP, before I caught fire, I went off track four times in one lap (big damn difference in braking a Miata and a Z car!!!!). And you don't jump starts either, which was also reported by people on the sidelines near the start and by people behind the offending driver.
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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS
My comments were based on what happened to me in the paddock while loading the Z onto the trailer.
Jeff had to go to "court" and to handle documents and I spent the time trying to round up tools and help to get the non-rolling car on the trailer. I really appreciate the help that was provided to me by numerous people - I am sorry I did not get everyone's name but please, if you need help for anything please ask - anything I have is yours.
While I was rounding up people/tools/materials I had a number of people, some in driver's suits and some out, talk to me and say they saw the wreck and they'd be happy to bear witness to the event if needed. About that time Jay's wife came by and picked me up so I could help her delivery money for Jay and Jeff's protest and to pass at some witness sheets (that was when I saw you Tristan).
Unfortunately, I'm new to this and don't know that many people, so the folks I talked to just a few minutes before I could not identify to help out with the process. Plus, I just didn't know the process and if I knew it was important to have witnesses I would have made sure I knew where those folks were that had talked to me 30 minutes earlier. I figured in car video was about all the witness one would need, but Jeff informed me that it had to be statements from drivers.
In any event, there could have been many more witnesses to the event to provide a more accurate description of events. Tristan, I'm glad you signed yours and put it in, but had I known more about the process I would have had sheets on my person when Jeff/Jay decided to protest and could have given them to people when I talked to them.
Like Jeff, I'm not out to get people but dang, having just gone through school I learned, along with the rest of folks, that you don't keep your foot in the gas when you go off track. And trust me, last time at CMP, before I caught fire, I went off track four times in one lap (big damn difference in braking a Miata and a Z car!!!!). And you don't jump starts either, which was also reported by people on the sidelines near the start and by people behind the offending driver.
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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS
instigator
New member
Well saturday I was lucky I got to turn 2 as the action slowed down. Didn't see much, but bent up sheet metal. Sunday I belive the ITS bmw that either Mr or Ms shafer were driving "red" started the wreck on front strech by missing gear and I almost got it in that one. That sent me to the back of the pack got lucky and made it back up to 4th. The 41 car will have a new tube and be back in about a couple of months.
Kurt Jackson
IT7 #59
Kurt Jackson
IT7 #59
chuck baader
New member
Results from Saturday are posted on the Buccaneerregion. web site. Sunday results are still under protest and will be posted when the protests are resolved. Chuck
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Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar
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Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar