SCCA's answer to the HPDE participants

Matt Rowe

Matt Rowe

New member
When talking about what SCCA is doing to attract the younger crowd I frequently see the comment that SCCA is losing out to organizations like NASA due to their HPDE program. What I don't see is an awareness that SCCA does have a program, Time Trials, designed to attract these people that want to bring their current car out and either learn to "race" or even compete for times.

To be completely forthright I am a little partial to this topic because I have led the Time Trials program for the last several years. But that also means that I have the perspective that the tools exist, the greatest challenge we still have is getting individual regions and event planners to take advantage of the program. While it is true that the NASA style format of a combined racing/HPDE format will work for every area, the rules are intentionally designed to be flexible enough to operate either:

1) within a club racing weekend where car counts are low enough to allow for an extra group
2) in parallel with club racing school weekends
3) standalone Time Trial only events
4) ...?

So, I would ask that for those of you that think (or know) we are losing out on this source of new drivers please encourage your region to consider taking advantage of the Time Trials program. Even better it would be great to offer to help your region as they are frequently maxed out on their current responsibilities.

Either way, if you have any questions I would be happy explain the program or talk about possible improvements.
 
Nebraska region brought this up at the last meeting. So far there seems to be some interest. Time will tell how many actually participate.
 
Great Lakes was stuck at 3 PDXs per year, now down to 2 with WOR losing their MO date. Last year Cincy tried running an actual level 1 (or whatever it is called) time trial but got few cars and cancelled. WOR used to do a stand alone PDX but for several years all PDXs have been the Friday before a race.

It seems the biggest obstacle in GL is that lots of other organizations run track days and the perception is that virtually all of them do it better or cheaper. We're at the bad end of the cost/value spectrum and also on the hassle factor. More expensive, less fun is the perception.
 
This is all my personal opinion (my .02¢): I don’t think that HPDE/PDX generates a large number of racers. I think it is like Autocross – it is its own thing and not a great feeder for w2w. It generates racers – sure, but not in mass. If it did, That N club would have had to split into separate weekends for races and HPDE events due to the number of folks moving from HPDE to racing. I know quite a few folks who HPDE/PDX and most of them are very happy doing just that. They can have a nice street car with little to no modification and enjoy lapping days. No licensing, safety gear (cage/suit/H&N/fire system…), trailer or any of the other expenses that come with racing. Heck – They can even purchase cheap insurance for the PDX to cover their street car if anything happens to it! Now many of the track day folks do trailer their car to the track and have some or all of the safety items – some even use race prepped cars. But they seem happy with just doing the track day and have little to no interest in racing. (At least the ones I’ve talked to). Sure – I’ve seen guys do one PDX and purchase a race car the next week (Dan!). But that seems to be the exception… Some of the guys I’ve talked to said they PDX/HPDE because of the high cost of entry to club racing. These same folks are doing the track day in their $50k Porsche 911 or BMW or S2000 or Z06 Corvette. Wearing a race suit that cost thousands of dollars and running R compound tires, big brakes – upgrades galore to the car….. When I tell them they could have more fun w2w in a Civic – I get a funny look. When I try to explain the way in (i.e. selling the expensive street car and getting a DD beater to afford to go racing), I get the same funny look. If they really wanted to go w2w racing – they could make it happen.

I know around here (GLDiv), we have decent turnout for the PDX events at Mid-Ohio. Everyone I talk to has a good time and some express interest in racing. I also know that there is not time during the weekend for a PDX group. The race groups are still large enough to fill the weekend schedule.
 
There are two different questions a play here:

1. How many NASA HPDE participants transition to W2W racing - a relatively small percentage

2. How many NASA racers started out in NASA HPDE - I'd venture that it's a huge majority

Focusing on the first question - which I think Matt is doing? - doesn't answer the question of where SCCA's new racers are going to come from.

Now, for my $.02... I don't think that the SCCA as an organization or a culture, is going to be tolerant of the relatively lower expectations re: safety that are at play in the NASA HPDE ladder.

K
 
As a related aside.... You are talking about SCCA PDX events twice or three times a year; At least for Norcal and Socal NASA regions, they have 10-12 events per year. Way more opportunity for track time in their HPDE sessions.
I'd also agree with Doc K; of NASA racers, high percentage wnet through HPDE as a way to get involved. Many HPDE folks have no interest in racing.
 
Add to this that the TTAC (Time Trial Admin council) is currently thinking of allowing open passing in their level 3 events with cars that have no more than a roll bar. Idiotic that we are heading the NASA direction with our safety and turning this into a glorified race or test day. Drivers will get hurt and then we will force full road race gear on the group because of the stupidity of a few in power. Drivers are not wanting this, and my region damn sure does not want it. It will kill many of the good programs in place now.
 
Never been to a NASA HPDE, but I know several friends that have, and are now racing with ST*, PT*, SM, etc etc etc within NASA. A few of them have also come over to SCCA.

I did HPDEs (just not in NASA) for about 8 years before I finally had the money to get into racing.

Almost all new racers stem from an HPDE type of environment, but as said, not all HPDE guys want to become racers. For those that do, the barriers to SCCA are seen to be high and wide.

honestly it wasn't that hard for me to get into SCCA- just expensive. I could have bought a legal, running IT car for less than the car I started racing with, but I wanted to build _MY_ car the way _I_ wanted.
That's one of the main differences I see in SCCA vs. NASA and the younger crowd. The younger guys look at SCCA and go "WTF? My daily driver is faster than an IT car and has more mods, and is cheaper to maintain. Then there's those Prod cars. Those things look stock on the outside with stock brakes, and have a $15,000 engine and $5000 in shocks? EFF DAT! I can go to NASA and build the car I want, then just add up the points and there's my class. easy!"


SCCA's classing structure is FAR from what the HPDE driver looks at when building their car. Unless you run in GT and some will fit in ST*, you're stuck with a crappy intake manifold, poor stock cams, brakes, whatever.. They can make their car faster for cheaper just staying in HPDEs and having fun.
 
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downingracing said:
Some of the guys I’ve talked to said they PDX/HPDE because of the high cost of entry to club racing. These same folks are doing the track day in their $50k Porsche 911 or BMW or S2000 or Z06 Corvette. Wearing a race suit that cost thousands of dollars and running R compound tires, big brakes – upgrades galore to the car….. When I tell them they could have more fun w2w in a Civic – I get a funny look. When I try to explain the way in (i.e. selling the expensive street car and getting a DD beater to afford to go racing), I get the same funny look. If they really wanted to go w2w racing – they could make it happen
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I'm an example of that. It was easy for me, I WANTED to race and knew what I had to do. It was tough sell my toys I had really worked hard for and wanted since I was a kid. Once folks realize they can't afford to convert their high end sports car to a racer we loose them. How do we change their minds?
 
SCCA's classing structure is FAR from what the HPDE driver looks at when building their car.
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Exactly. Its a different culture/mindset regarding car classing. SCCA will draw far fewer people from their HPDE program into Club Racing then NASA does (which is still a small percentage of HPDE participants.)

I have two customers now that are going with NASA TT/PT because their 150hp, 2,500lb. cars would have to run ITE. Both have run local SCCA PDXs and I tried to talk them into making a couple minor changes to get them into STU or ITA/ITB but they are not interested. Both asked, "Why go to the trouble when NASA will accept and class our cars as is?" I explained the classing philosophy to them but they don't care about the history of SCCA or IT. They just want to race and see SCCA class rules as a barrier to entry.
 
red986s said:
... Once folks realize they can't afford to convert their high end sports car to a racer we loose them. How do we change their minds?
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In a lot of cases - probably most - we can't. And if we position the club strategically assuming we HAVE to accomplish that, we compromise what positive core competencies we do have.

K
 
Our problem in New England was the lack of volunteers to staff such and event. Given that our racing weekends are typically full, we experemented with running the PDX on a Monday (say memorial day), but it was very difficult to staff with the volunteers wanting to go home and already being at the track for 2+ days.

So the region decided the PDX was not worth the effort and not worth the burnout of our critical volunteers to make the bread-winner (RR) work.
 
Knestis said:
In a lot of cases - probably most - we can't. And if we position the club strategically assuming we HAVE to accomplish that, we compromise what positive core competencies we do have.

K
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When you are at a PDX and someone starts to act interested in jumping from pdx to w2w and they start talking about building a car, the first thing you do is start talking them down. Because we all know that for 95% of people building a car is a mistake. They'll spend a bunch of time and money, the car will be slow and they will burn out.

Maybe it's a little different in NASA where some people do slowly build their car up and maybe it is just as simple as adding $3k worth of safety to it.

It seems to me that NASA is in the position of not saying no, they just go ahead and eat up those newbies and spit them out because they have a steady stream incoming. So what if most burn out and only a few stick around long term, we got there money and filled our fields? And that might not be a bad philosophy. Our "strategy" of weeding the newbies out before they even show up might save a lot of people money but it might not be the best long term strategy.
 
mixing a restricted regional of IT/ST/SM and maybe Touring/SS/B-Spec and a PDX in rotation like a regular race weekend would be a good way to really expose them to track time and racing and the competitors and cars up close and in person in a way that highlights the "ladder" for their cars.

Partnering with a successful local track day club would be a good way to start with a base pool of entrants, too.

obviously doesn't work for higher end sports cars and big buck super cars but hopefully they will see the "rental cars" running wheel to wheel at better lap times then they are getting and decide that racing can be for them. and meybe the PDX guys will see the light about moving their car up vs. picking up a racecar. sometimes it makes more sense that way.
 
jumbojimbo said:
When you are at a PDX and someone starts to act interested in jumping from pdx to w2w and they start talking about building a car, the first thing you do is start talking them down. Because we all know that for 95% of people building a car is a mistake. They'll spend a bunch of time and money, the car will be slow and they will burn out.

Maybe it's a little different in NASA where some people do slowly build their car up and maybe it is just as simple as adding $3k worth of safety to it.

It seems to me that NASA is in the position of not saying no, they just go ahead and eat up those newbies and spit them out because they have a steady stream incoming. So what if most burn out and only a few stick around long term, we got there money and filled our fields? And that might not be a bad philosophy. Our "strategy" of weeding the newbies out before they even show up might save a lot of people money but it might not be the best long term strategy.
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I think that, until you really get into racing, and are brutally honest with yourself about the actual competition (YOUR talent winning, vs 'car love'), you don't 'get' classing structure. So NASAs PT class is fine for most. They don't get that it's really not about actual competition, or, that in most cases, competition is rather thin.
Of course, once in, they discover the costs associated (time and money), and then look at SCCA, where the competition (in some classes) is deeper, and they see more time and money.
 
Matt93SE said:
..Almost all new racers stem from an HPDE type of environment, but as said, not all HPDE guys want to become racers. ...
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Where did you get that stat from? I've searched in the past and can't find a 'real' source for actual data. I've known folks to come from PDX, Autocross, Drag Racing, friend of a friend... Tons of starting points. I know my sample is small (like 30-40 folks over the years) and would like to see some data on the road to w2w.
 
As one of the people who helped this to happen, I think we must consider several things-

#1- In NASA (and some other clubs), if you want to RACE, you WILL participate in track-day events, since that is the core of their driver/racer education process. You work up through from track days to time trials to mock-racing scenarios, then you get to race. When you say that most of NASA's racers come from HPDE, realize that is by design, not by choice.

#2- We in SCCA still have the mindset that PDXs are best put on by racers. Coming from a region of hillclimbers that did autocrosses to help pay the bills, I can tell you that if people are putting on the events because of real or perceived obligation, the event will stop as soon as the people can find a way to get out of it. DC Region, and a few others, have built a program based on PDX participants (grown out of a few racers, many others, and some people from- GASP- other organizations) and it is relatively successful. It has taken them a few years to get to this point, but their efforts are getting results.

#3- Most racers are people who wanted to, um, race. Some autocross, or do HPDE events, or do other Time Trials, until either (a) they can afford to race, or (b) they can find a way to get into racing. The chances of converting a "true autocrosser" to racing are slim to none, since they really want to autocross. However, providing a means from someone who *wants* to transition from autocross to racing was something that SCCA lacked for a long time. PDX was meant to give people options, not only in finding a path to racing, but also to have another type of track event in which to participate.

A few notes though-
Steve- I am monitoring the discussion of alteration to the passing rules, and I will do everything I can to maintain rules that help keep our participants safe. While I am no longer head of the Safety Council, I still to have the ability (I believe) to weigh in if needed.

As mentioned by others- I believe our biggest barrier to entry for racers is our class structure, AND the perception of an archaic ruleset and leadership mindset. While PDX has the ability to attract participants and expose them to the true nature of our club, I'm not sure that doing so will do any more than to reinforce those views at this point.

I think Matt's original point was that if you honestly feel, given the situation in your particular area, that we are losing people by not having a way to bring them in without thrusting them neck-deep into Driver's School, then SCCA has a way to address that. It doesn't solve the problem, but it gives you one way to treat a major symptom...
 
I tell you, you Matts are VERY hard to keep track of! BOTH involved in HPDEs, BOTH Dodge guys, BOTH of you have two cars in your sig, and they are the SAME car!
 
downingracing said:
Where did you get that stat from? I've searched in the past and can't find a 'real' source for actual data. I've known folks to come from PDX, Autocross, Drag Racing, friend of a friend... Tons of starting points. I know my sample is small (like 30-40 folks over the years) and would like to see some data on the road to w2w.
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Personal observation, obviously a small and fairly biased field, but it's what I've seen locally.

I started Autocrossing myself in about 2000 or 2001, then got into DEs because I wanted more speed. I did DEs and autoX for a few years, then decided to concentrate my money on DEs.
During that time, I watched many of my friends go through the same path and 'graduate' to w2w racing.

I finally went through the driver's school myself last summer, and most of the people there I knew from running DEs in the past, with the exception of a few "kids" that went directly from karts to racing. Just about everyone else there had done DEs for at least a couple years before they went racing.

Many of the people I race with, I also see participating and instructing at HPDEs for various local clubs like Driver's Edge, NASA, PCA/BMWCCA (they play together locally..), Viper and Corvette guys, etc.

So that's obviously hard, official data... But that's what I've seen. YMMV.
lateapex911 said:
I tell you, you Matts are VERY hard to keep track of! BOTH involved in HPDEs, BOTH Dodge guys, BOTH of you have two cars in your sig, and they are the SAME car!
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And then there's that blabbermouth in his Nissan that just won't take a hint he's not wanted. ;)
 
Matt93SE said:
Personal observation, obviously a small and fairly biased field, but it's what I've seen locally.

I started Autocrossing myself in about 2000 or 2001, then got into DEs because I wanted more speed. I did DEs and autoX for a few years, then decided to concentrate my money on DEs.
During that time, I watched many of my friends go through the same path and 'graduate' to w2w racing.

I finally went through the driver's school myself last summer, and most of the people there I knew from running DEs in the past, with the exception of a few "kids" that went directly from karts to racing. Just about everyone else there had done DEs for at least a couple years before they went racing.

Many of the people I race with, I also see participating and instructing at HPDEs for various local clubs like Driver's Edge, NASA, PCA/BMWCCA (they play together locally..), Viper and Corvette guys, etc.

So that's obviously hard, official data... But that's what I've seen. YMMV.


And then there's that blabbermouth in his Nissan that just won't take a hint he's not wanted. ;)
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I did the same, but in hindsight I also thought I knew it all and didn't ahng out with the "real" racers. If I did I would have done the whole racing thing TOTALLY different. I think you guys are on to something...
 
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