SE regional class; ITJ

Flyinglizard

Flyinglizard

New member
If anyone else sees a reason or market for the "ITJ" class, please let me know.
The basic rules that I am looking at are.
Chumpcar/Lemons;
SCCA or more cage,sillplates etc are allowed ,no max floor plate area. No straight tubing past the wheels, other than core support. No tube frames. No gutting of the crush zones.
SCCA safety rules; other wise

DOT 190 tires, max width 205, for all cars and any wheels.

" Chumpcar" body rules, min 60% of stock panels, (by piece count not square in.)
Stock glass, lexan or remove glass.
Stock or equivalent throttle body area.
Stock exhaust manifold
93DB sound
No fuel rigs, "Chumpcar" standard fuel jugs only.
2 Drivers per race, 5 min stop , clocked on the lap timer( over 1 hr).
Normal sprint races.
I will present this set to the CFR and FR and maybe Atlanta region , RE, after the Daytona race.
MM
 
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I personally hate the idea. Chump and lemmons in their on group maybe, but not mixed with the others. There was a junker that officials put in ITA at the last daytona weekend.BMW 525 I think. Dog slow in the corners, fast in the straits. Got in the middle of races for cars actually prepared to run in that group.
 
Funny that you can say Daytona and "corners" in the same sentence. It is what it is I guess.
ITA had one driver, ITO( Crap can) had one driver, about the same lap times. So without the crapcan the driver would have been out by himself. As it was, they had some sort of a race.
results show; ITC maybe 3 cars, ITB 4 cars, .
Granted, it is track specific , the slow cars dont like the60sec of noise,followed by 30sec of 4 turns.
 
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132 cars registered for Chumpcar- Daytona, 5/27, 14 hr race. 125 will start.
Each car has at least 4 drivers. ( my team has 16 people)
Each car has paid 900$ reg fee.
I think that the key to getting some of these drivers, is that the team of 4, will hamper the results of the best drivers. The best drivers want to control the race outcome for themselves.
That could be the SCCA market nitch. letting the best drivers run the ITJ car for sprint races or 2 driver , short enduros .
IMHO. MM
 
A couple of Lemons/Chump drivers came over to the StangWerks Sunday afternoon to have a look at our cars. They have two V6 Mustangs they're racing in teh "crapcan" series. After talking with them a couple of hours a few things were clear:

*They have the skills to build a winning IT car.

*They can drive. Both do lots of DE days with two sports car clubs in the area plus test days. They have dedicated track cars (both V8 Mustangs). One guy just ordered a brand new 2013 Boss Stang. They probably get more track time that we do.

*They are well funded. They haven't spent IT-money on their cars, but they aren't far from it. They have certainly spent a good amount of time in the garage.

But in talking to them about SCCA racing, well, they just aren't that interested in learning about it or doing it. To them, they're racing, racing hard, and most importantly, they're having a ball. They're inviting us to come watch them and help at "enduro events", where the "real racing happens". They do not perceive SCCA as the pinaccle of amateur racing, if anything they consider NASA a more prestigious club but also think it is expensive based on what they have seen at NASA events (I tend to agree here, some of the NASA cars are huge money).

I too believe the SCCA is going to lose out on a bunch of potential racers if they cannot in some way accommodate, or at least attract, these racers. Maybe instead of running full page ads in magazines for SCCA races the local SCCA needs to come up with a booth type advertisement that highlights various transitions from Crapcan to SCCA, setup a table at a crapcan race, and talk to people about it.

I dunno. 125 cars starting at $1000 a pop is serious business.

R
 
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The market is so strong that I am taking the glass out of 2 pretty nice IT cars this week, to run them in Chump. I get about 4 SCCA rentals per year now. I will have 8 rental drivers at Chump Daytona, 12 @ Sebring, 8 @ Road Atlanta. About 1/3 have or have had SCCA memberships.

Maybe SCCA is the stepping stone to Chump already. Maybe the SCCA system/business model is not what these guys want.
 
Flyinglizard said:
132 cars registered for Chumpcar- Daytona, 5/27, 14 hr race. 125 will start.
Each car has at least 4 drivers. ( my team has 16 people)
Each car has paid 900$ reg fee.
I think that the key to getting some of these drivers, is that the team of 4, will hamper the results of the best drivers. The best drivers want to control the race outcome for themselves.
That could be the SCCA market nitch. letting the best drivers run the ITJ car for sprint races or 2 driver , short enduros .
IMHO. MM
Click to expand...

We've got about 60 cars ( that's at least 300 drivers ) for the 24 Hour Chump race at TWS this weekend. Lots of SCCA drivers in the field. Some with serious efforts , some with just for fun efforts.

The team of 4 thing can be good and bad. When you get 4 guys together that are on the same page and similar skills , it's great. Sometimes it's tough to get 4 funded drivers together. I watched our car owner struggle to develop a team in his 1st few races. ( we've got 7 drivers for this weekend's event )

I've got an SM with a never touched motor that I'm considering Chumpizing , would love to see some SCCA races ( sprint or short enduro ) for this car on 190 treadwear tires. Of course the challenge is finding the run group for these cars to run.

At the end of the day , our club needs to do what it needs to do to remain relevant. I keep hearing people say it's just the economy , but Chump / Lemons are doing just fine. That's market share not just economy.
 
The more I look at this question, the more I think it might come down to the tires.

It's not the enduro format that is the super-mojo for Chump. We have long races with 4 driver teams in SCCA. The problem is that I need to get enough $$ from each driver to not go broke fielding the team, and a chunk of that goes to tires.

We talked a little about it at NJMP last week and there were some nodding heads when I said I'd be totally FINE if everyone in the IT field were on cheap DOT 190 tires - enduro or sprint.

K
 
Knestis said:
The more I look at this question, the more I think it might come down to the tires.

We talked a little about it at NJMP last week and there were some nodding heads when I said I'd be totally FINE if everyone in the IT field were on cheap DOT 190 tires - enduro or sprint.

K
Click to expand...

Ding , Ding , Ding ... We have a winner :happy204:
 
Copy that on tires. I have my CC set up with soft rear springs, almost no camber, and lots of air. This wears the tire a little in the middle and can swap onto the same side fronts. We get about 20hrs on a set of tires. Unless my Son drives.
My setup has moved to a push also, so that more drivers can touch the brakes mid turn and not spin. We were running over cars in the turns and would spin, upon a heavy lift or brake. Now , more drivers can ,as a team, put down more laps over the same time. The lap times are way closer.
When the car was nice and balanced, some drivers would be 3-4 sec faster , But 2-3 spins per race would cost us a few laps.
MM
 
Knestis said:
The more I look at this question, the more I think it might come down to the tires.

It's not the enduro format that is the super-mojo for Chump. We have long races with 4 driver teams in SCCA. The problem is that I need to get enough $$ from each driver to not go broke fielding the team, and a chunk of that goes to tires.

We talked a little about it at NJMP last week and there were some nodding heads when I said I'd be totally FINE if everyone in the IT field were on cheap DOT 190 tires - enduro or sprint.

K
Click to expand...

SCCA already maintains some great "road tire" rules over on the Solo side. They're 140+ tread wear with an exclusion list. Having run with both SCCA Solo and Chumpcar, SCCA's "road tire" rules are superior imho. The 190TW rule makes it a 1-make show (Dunlop Star Spec) and that tire is soon to be discontinued. The 140TW rating opens up more opportunities, sizes, etc. The wear characteristics of these tires in Solo competition have proven to be comparable to the Star Spec. This is an opportunity for SCCA.

It's true that SCCA runs a few endurance races. Unfortunately there are not nearly enough of them to base a team around.

Lemons and Chumpcar are not without their weaknesses. The real cost of the cars can be comparable to building an IT car. Less is spent on high performance parts, but due to the poor condition of the donors, more is frequently spent on initial maintenance. Due to the potential of inexperienced drivers, the courses are often “dumbed down”. An example is Chumpcar using the motorcycle “bend” prior to the Kink at Road America. Also neither series will allow a traditional 2x2 rolling start; the cars circulate the track spread out at random until a green flag is flown. Frustration with the performance disparity between cars is starting to show in Chumpcar. Inter-personal conflicts within the teams is another potential pitfall of their model or any multi-driver endurance series.

Since I'm stranded in an airport with nothing else to do, what do ya'll think of this format for a race weekend?

Begin with a distance-based (vs. time-based) multi-driver endurance series. Classing would be similar to that used for the "Devil in the Dark" race, i.e. 4 classes with the Solo 140TW tire rules applied for at least the two lower classes. The rules and format would need to be maintained and promoted by the National Office such that the rules, nationwide schedule, and results could be found in one central location on the web. This aspect would be important in attracting drivers from Lemons or Chumpcar who are used to this and also new drivers.

Friday: Registration opens similar to any club race weekend.

Saturday:
Multiple Heat Races - Each team will will field each of their drivers in a sprint race to earn points based on their finishing position to establish their starting position for Sunday's endurance race. An average of the finishing points would be used to equalize teams with different numbers of drivers. Any driver competing on Sunday will have to have competed in a heat race on Saturday. The purpose of Saturday from a "product" stand point is to give each driver an opportunity to excel individually and be the team hero for a time every race weekend. The "crapcan" series don't necessarily provide this experience for every driver.

Sunday:
Begin a single 500 mile race at 9:00am with as much "pomp and circumstance" as possible. A conventional 2x2 rolling start would be used and the race ends when the first car achieves a set number of laps. The finish should also be handled with "pomp and circumstance." Results should be posted on the National website asap upon completion of the race. Once again from a product standpoint, this single race would be treated as the focus of the weekend. Doing so allows everyone to focus on the same singular event and makes the results of the weekend easier to relate to the general public.
 
Forest, Your schedule needs to be time limited.
Crap can racing runs about 150$ per hr of track time MOL.
We need to present a package that get s the racers on track for less than 200$ per hr. The races need to be at least 2hrs, so that 2 drivers can drive.

Draw1)Part of the draw of "CrapCan Racing" (CCR) is that the team buds build the car together. The one guy loading his FV all by himself does not exist in CCR. The guys have fun at the track, enroute, and fixing the car. How can we duplicate this?

Draw 2) The best cars cost about 5000$ all done. MOL
Old crappy IT cars are about the same. How can we duplicate this?

Draw 3) races are 7 hr or more. Lots of stuff happens, the fast cars seldom win. Teams tow 10hrs or more very often. How can we compete? (We have Canadian teams coming to FL for Daytona)
I see very little market to run these cars in the normal SCCA sprint format. The guys just dont see the reason to prep cars for months, tow for hrs. and race for one or maybe 2 hours per weekend. Chumpcar looses racers when they shorten races from 14hr to 8.

Draw 4) write the check and race. No med other than the drivers license. Can we change to something like this?

Draw 5) Night racing. ..
I had 3 drivers doing rock/paper/scissors, to see who got to drive in the dark, in the rain, @ Sebring, with no roof.

I would like to see a "Twilight Endurance Series". Race from maybe 5:00 till 9 or 10 pm.
Allow IT cars,prod cars, ITJ/CCR cars, all on 190 or 180 or higher tread wear tires. Max width of 205 mm
Any wheel. No fuel rigs! This lets the CCR guys come with their tires, the SCCA guys will have to buy tires anyway but not wheels. The 205s will go on up to 8in wide. All good. The 205 will limit the value of big power .( issue with Chumpcar, no tire width rule).
TEO for fast, TEU for less fast. 2 classes only
Allow the CCR drivers, school credit for the successful race.
Hand out the Novice permits post race and let them race on the book, from then on. WE have plenty of stewards to monitor the race and allow this to happen.
I' d be happy to put together some guidelines, but this is most of it.
MM
PS. the car below , was the car above.
 

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Flyinglizard said:
Allow the CCR drivers, school credit for the successful race.
Hand out the Novice permits post race and let them race on the book, from then on. WE have plenty of stewards to monitor the race and allow this to happen.
Click to expand...

By the way this is absolutely doable under alternate driver school options put in the GCR last year.
 
Flyinglizard said:
Forest, Your schedule needs to be time limited.
Crap can racing runs about 150$ per hr of track time MOL.
We need to present a package that get s the racers on track for less than 200$ per hr. The races need to be at least 2hrs, so that 2 drivers can drive.

Draw1)Part of the draw of "CrapCan Racing" (CCR) is that the team buds build the car together. The one guy loading his FV all by himself does not exist in CCR. The guys have fun at the track, enroute, and fixing the car. How can we duplicate this?

Draw 2) The best cars cost about 5000$ all done. MOL
Old crappy IT cars are about the same. How can we duplicate this?

Draw 3) races are 7 hr or more. Lots of stuff happens, the fast cars seldom win. Teams tow 10hrs or more very often. How can we compete? (We have Canadian teams coming to FL for Daytona)
I see very little market to run these cars in the normal SCCA sprint format. The guys just dont see the reason to prep cars for months, tow for hrs. and race for one or maybe 2 hours per weekend. Chumpcar looses racers when they shorten races from 14hr to 8.

Draw 4) write the check and race. No med other than the drivers license. Can we change to something like this?

Draw 5) Night racing. ..
I had 3 drivers doing rock/paper/scissors, to see who got to drive in the dark, in the rain, @ Sebring, with no roof.

I would like to see a "Twilight Endurance Series". Race from maybe 5:00 till 9 or 10 pm.
Allow IT cars,prod cars, ITJ/CCR cars, all on 190 or 180 or higher tread wear tires. Max width of 205 mm
Any wheel. No fuel rigs! This lets the CCR guys come with their tires, the SCCA guys will have to buy tires anyway but not wheels. The 205s will go on up to 8in wide. All good. The 205 will limit the value of big power .( issue with Chumpcar, no tire width rule).
TEO for fast, TEU for less fast. 2 classes only
Allow the CCR drivers, school credit for the successful race.
Hand out the Novice permits post race and let them race on the book, from then on. WE have plenty of stewards to monitor the race and allow this to happen.
I' d be happy to put together some guidelines, but this is most of it.
MM
PS. the car below , was the car above.
Click to expand...


I like some of your ideas, comments below. For reference, I've built or participated in building 3 Lemons cars, and led two of the 3 teams.

1) No, that's true for some, but not everybody. There's nothing to differentiate between SCCA or CCR on this one. I was an IT guy first. I built the latest car by myself, and prefer it that way. I do it just like I did IT.. I prep well before the event, and barring any freak occurance, I don't work on the car at the track. I sure don't bring all kinds of spares. Oil, Trans fluid, and brake pads/rotors are about it. So, this one is neutral.

2) Yep - $5k is about right for a fast car, BUT - you get to build what YOU want, not some rule set that sweats you over bolt length or decal placement. THIS is the draw for me and why I left IT.

3) Mixed on this... I actually prefer the true 24 events the best - best test of man and machine. After one of those, I feel like I've accomplished something. A sprint race feels to me know like an autocross run used to. Given I've only got 2hrs of fuel endurance though, I'd say anything in 2hr increments is good - great way to run multiple drivers... I'd run a sprint race if it was close. Also good to test out the car before a Lemons race, but there's too many requirements.... Hans, Physicals, drivers schools, licenses etc.... no thanks. THIS is where you are losing people, not session length. I had the same "SCCA Attitude" at first with Lemons where you show up, pay $50 and you are a racer. Truth be told, the drivers are more courteous and less "demo derby" in Lemons than they are in IT - Another reason I prefer Lemons - I don't want the spec pinata guys in particular trashing my IT car for a plastic trophy.

4) Agree totally. SCCA=Hassle. Don't have time or the will to jump through those hoops anymore, though if it were easier I'd come back.

5) Yep... Night racing is fun, though I always keep the roof for rain reasons. I like the twilight idea.

Why are you trying to eliminate any car bigger than yours? The 205 tire limit is nuts. This is part of the "Stupid" rules that got me out of SCCA in the first place. I've got a great IT car, but I'll be damned if I'm going to throw out my new panasports and add 200# of lead because they reclassed me. It sits in the garage and I run lemons instead. Similarly, you limit what I can run, and I won't run your series either. My car came with 225's to start with - you'd force me to run an "unsafe" tire? Not likely. Your rule would eliminate any car bigger than yours... That's like saying everybody should run 345/30's... You'd lose 1/2 your potential customers right off the bat with either proposal. You've got all kinds of spec series already - let me build what and how I want.
 
Knestis said:
The more I look at this question, the more I think it might come down to the tires.

It's not the enduro format that is the super-mojo for Chump. We have long races with 4 driver teams in SCCA. The problem is that I need to get enough $$ from each driver to not go broke fielding the team, and a chunk of that goes to tires.

We talked a little about it at NJMP last week and there were some nodding heads when I said I'd be totally FINE if everyone in the IT field were on cheap DOT 190 tires - enduro or sprint.

K
Click to expand...

Yeah, Tires are a big factor... That would certainly reduce costs and make IT more attractive... I've gotten quite used to the 190's in Lemons, and its enough to be fun. There's no horrible street tire noises or anything.
 
205 for the CCU class works fine . CCO can use anything.
Ihave issues with E 36 and big 6cyl cars running as a 500$ car, but that cat is out of the bag and we just have to deal with it.
2Classes cover it fine, IMHO.
 
...$5k is about right for a fast car, BUT - you get to build what YOU want, not some rule set that sweats you over bolt length or decal placement. THIS is the draw for me and why I left IT.

You understand that you just admitted that "$500 race cars" already cost 10x as much as that to build, and you've left the door wide open for that cost to increase essentially unchecked, right?

With 125 cars vying for a win at ANY race, the competitive pressure - and interest of increasingly well-funded drivers - spending will inflate like a carcass in the sun. Even with cheap-o tires, it's going to go nuts.

K
 
Knestis said:
]

You understand that you just admitted that "$500 race cars" already cost 10x as much as that to build, and you've left the door wide open for that cost to increase essentially unchecked, right?
Click to expand...

No way man, they only cost $500!

Says the fellow who sold a $350 panhard rod to a guy who then asked me to sign a Craigslist printout stating it was sold for $45.

R
 
Chumpcar and Lemons is very much about how well you can cheat, how good is your theme and how well you bribe the judges. That's half the fun...
 
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