Starting Alignment Settings

[euro]

I am a new racer as of this year participating in the German Touring Challenge (runs with NASA).

I have a Corrado. I am using off the shelf H&R RSS Club Sport Coilovers (H&R's race spec non-adj VR6 spring rates). All of the bushings, tie rods, ball joints etc are new. I do not currently have camber plates installed. (Hint: Bill... get to work)

I am getting ready for VIR on Feb 16-19 and I want to set up the suspension with a baseline to start testing. Do you think this sounds about right?

Camber: As much as I can get right now with offset bolts. Hopefully -1 to -.5 degree on both sides.
Ideally I think I need about -4 degrees

Caster: ?

Tow: 1/16 total toe out.

Wheels are 17 x 8 SSR's on Toyo RA-1 205-40-17

 

[Bill Miller]

Looks good for a start. Not sure if you can adjust caster on a Corrado or not. By in large, most of the VW platforms don't have provisions for caster adjustment. It is an A2 platform, after all.

 

[mgyip]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 24 2006, 02:30 PM
Not sure if you can adjust caster on a Corrado or not.  By in large, most of the VW platforms don't have provisions for caster adjustment. 

[snapback]71926[/snapback]​

There is no formal caster adjustment on the A2 although you can do what everyone else seems to do and mount the camber plates rearward in the upper strut opening

 

[rmicroys]

Not sure if you need 4deg of camber. I run about 3.25 deg of camber on my Jetta with Toyo RA-1s, 205/50/15s. What makes you think you need 4? Start at three, and then use a pyrometer to check your temps, pressures, etc. Then go higher, watch the inside tire. With too much camber, and wheelspin on tight corners they really get hot on the inside - and with that much camber on the straights too - it will be noticable.

 

[racer_tim]

Greg, like the previous have said, aim for negative 3 degree's of camber, then check the tire temps with a pyrometer.

The VW doesn't really let you change the caster, so don't worry about it.

Adjust how the car feels with tire pressures, and go have fun.

For the first time racer, the more variables that are thrown at the driver, the more confused they get. Shock adjustment, ride height, spring rates, sway bar settings, corner weights, etc. all are good, but to start with, just use air pressure to adjust how the car handles, and as you get better, and want to spend more $$$ on both parts and seat time, just learn how to drive the car the way it is, and adjust accordingly.

 

[euro]

Originally posted by Bill Miller+Jan 24 2006, 02:30 PM-->

Looks good for a start.  Not sure if you can adjust caster on a Corrado or not.  By in large, most of the VW platforms don't have provisions for caster adjustment.  It is an A2 platform, after all.

[snapback]71926[/snapback]​

[/b]

-thats what I was thinking. Caster will be set for the first event at factory spec. Later I can move the plate back in the chassis if needed.


<!--QuoteBegin-rmicroys@Jan 24 2006, 07:44 PM
Not sure if you need 4deg of camber.  I run about 3.25 deg of camber on my Jetta with Toyo RA-1s, 205/50/15s.  What makes you think you need 4?  Start at three, and then use a pyrometer to check your temps, pressures, etc.  Then go higher, watch the inside tire.  With too much camber, and wheelspin on tight corners they really get hot on the inside - and with that much camber on the straights too - it will be noticable.

[snapback]71973[/snapback]​

That was a number someone I thought fairly knowledgeable threw around so I was using it as a goal to be able to get to four if necessary. I was planning to set the camber plates up so that max positive camber I could get was -.5 that leaves me with a lot of room to move inwards. I need to buy a puncture pyrometer my infrared one is not going to cut it for this...

Thanks for your help guys. I got the tires mounted yesterday so Im going to try to get it on an alignment rack next week.

 

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by euro@Jan 26 2006, 04:20 PM
I was planning to set the camber plates up so that max positive camber I could get was -.5 that leaves me with a lot of room to move inwards. I need to buy a puncture pyrometer my infrared one is not going to cut it for this...

[snapback]72371[/snapback]​

Good Call-

When we started we were running 3 - 3.5 degrees of negative camber and now on the Audi's we run 4.5 - 5 degrees of negative camber... and this still doesn't seem to be enough!!! This year we will be playing with Caster on 1 car and can give feedback later in the year... feel free to ask when/if you go out looking for camber and or camber/caster plates.

As for the pyrometer... an infrared one is almoast useless as the outside rubber on a tire cools quickly and the outside edge of the tire isn't even touching the ground when you are driving in a stright line. we always try to come into the pits "hot" to get accurate reedings even with a puncture pyrometer. We adjust our camber and pressures almoast every session perfecting the setup. It takes time and a great crew, but thats what helps make them fast.

Raymond

 

[Bildon]

mmmm Nice ride. I'm jealous, wish I could ditch the small block chevy err VR6 boat anchor I have and put a nice light bunny motor (or 20v) with a turbo on it like you have. My G60 handled so much better than our VR6. But anyway... What spring rates do yo have? H&R orig? That's going to to determine a lot of your camber setting as with a McF strut you lose camber proprtionately with roll.

We've been doing some work with people lately using the Bilstein B16 or H&R (same thing) kits and then modifying them for circuit racing.

http://www.bildon.com/pub/B16wHRrace.jpg

 

[euro]

mmmm Nice ride. I'm jealous, wish I could ditch the small block chevy err VR6 boat anchor I have and put a nice light bunny motor (or 20v) with a turbo on it like you have.[/b]

You can... Come join NASA and have a blast. We have a full car field scheduled at VIR already and thats a Feb race and we have nationals this year at Mid-Ohio. With the power to weight classing you can do anything you want, even run a full tube chassis, motons and syncro trans.

What spring rates do yo have? That's going to to determine a lot of your camber setting as with a McF strut you lose camber proprtionately with roll.
[/b]

I understand this statement. My Subaru STi needs a ton of camber to get the full benefit of the tires. My outside tire edge temps were way higher than the inside all year. I was just doing track days and learning and I didnt want to dump a bunch of money in it to fix it as its my street car so I just delt with it.

This car has some really stiff springs. I cant even make the car move if I put my weight on it and bounce. They look identical to the ones in your picture with the double springs except the bilstein stickers arent on the strut. I can get the number off the spring and cross reference it on the H&R 60mm Race spring chart on their web site. The car is pretty well balanced on the scales. It weighs a total of 2200 with full fuel right now.

Oh and Bill, please, send me some decals for the race contingency program. You should have my address on file. I just got those spacers/wheel studs off you in December. I'm saving $ now for you so I can get rid of the one wheel drive diff

thanks!
/Greg

 

[euro]

Straight from H&R headquarters:

Front Springs are 100 Newton Meters
Rears are 70 Newton Meters

UPDATE: These calculation in the quote box are WRONG.

...by my calculation, thats:

Front:
100nm 100(8.85)= 885 pounds/inch

Rear:
70nm 70(8.85)= 619 pounds/inch
[/b]

The correct calculation is as follows:

Front:
100nm 100(5.71)= 571 pounds/inch

Rear:
70nm 70(5.71)= 400 pounds/inch

 

[sixdub]

Straight from H&R headquarters:

Front Springs are 100 Newton Meters
Rears are 70 Newton Meters

...by my calculation, thats:

Front:
100nm 100(8.85)= 885 pounds/inch

Rear:
70nm 70(8.85)= 619 pounds/inch
[/b]

Hi Euro,

I *think* those rates should be in Newtons per millimeter. That is generally how I see H&R rates listed in SI units.

1 N/mm ~= 5.71 lb/in

So:

100 N/mm = 571 lb/in

70 N/mm = 400 lb/in

Still, very stiff springs indeed.

I have a VR6 "Plus" suspension in an A2 with coilovers and can get -3 deg camber with offset bolts. I would think you can do the same on yours.

Good luck

 

[euro]

They are indeed in Newtons per millimeter. I just recieved this conformation as my calculations were wrong. I'll update the above post for anyone just coming in.

H&R confirmed that the fronts were 571 lb springs.

Thanks.

Alignment Update:

On a laser rack the technician got these values...

Left Front
Camber: -1°21
Caster: 1°39
Toe: -0.°01

Right Front
Camber: -1°29
Caster: 2°16
Toe: -0°02

Total Toe -0°04 (Measured from the inside so a negative value means toe out)

Left Rear
Camber: -1°23

Right Rear
Camber: -1°21

 

[racer_tim]

Greg, were you in the car during the lazer alignment? Just like corner weighing, you need to have that additional weight where it's supposed to be to get real accurate measurements.

 

[euro]

Greg, were you in the car during the lazer alignment? Just like corner weighing, you need to have that additional weight where it's supposed to be to get real accurate measurements.
[/b]

No, but now I know for next time. I hope to be able to pick up some longacre tools this year so I can do this myself.

 

[euro]

Thanks everyone. This thing worked great. Im not changing anything for a while.

 

[racer_tim]

Looking @ the Flikr photo's, move the A-Pillar pods to the dash. Have you seen a "real" race car with gages on the A-pillar? This is a "street racing" setup, along with mounting the fire extinguisher on the passenger A-pillar.

Mounting an extinguished up high creates multiple issues: Higher Center of gravity: Risk of a "trajectory" if you hit something, which is a "when" not an "if" and only provides a "bling" for the street racing crowd.

Gages should be functional and within easy vision access while on track. Your current setup is only set up for NASCAR courses, not road racing.

Car looks good otherwise.

Sorry to be soo harsh, but there are differences between "street race cars" and "real race cars"

 

[euro]

Yes I wasn't too happy with that setup of those 3 guages.

All of those guages are being moved to the center dash under the switch panel as soon as I can get some time to git-r-done. I HATE those things there. I need maxiumum visability and those things not only block my vision I fear that they are a hazard. The shop that fabbed that up mostly builds drag cars so I have to cut him some slack.

I am also considering moving to a stack system or something similar next year to reduce the clutter. I want more warning lights and less guages and I'd love something that incorporated my AMB transponder to show times.

My number one priority right now before the next event is to try to X the passenger door bar and Im cutting out the driver door bar to build a modified nascar bar/X bar with 2 continuous tubes.