Threaded Sleeves/Shocks...

G

Greg Amy

Administrator
Staff member
...or, "Holy Rules Interpretations, Batman!"

There is a discussion going on over in the Prod forums (I'm seeing some familiar names there), that I find very enlightening and very applicable to IT. The debate is over the rules in regards to threaded sleeves on dampers:

ITCS D.5.b.5 - "Coil-over struts or shock absorbers, where a threaded sleeve is permanently attached to a housing, are prohibited unless fitted as standard equipment."

I had always read the rule to mean that the threads cannot be permanently attached to the shock body. However, read that sentence again, slowly. I'll wait...

What the rule REALLY says is that a SLEEVE WITH THREADS cannot be permanently attached to the shock body. That means, boys and girls, that threads which are machined or rolled into the shock body, ARE LEGAL as long as you don't use a sleeve! Therefore, the rules revert to ITCS D.5.b.1...

This is quite the revelation. I gave Very Serious thought to keeping my mouth (keyboard) shut and finding some really good value dampers that use threaded bodies, such as Morris Dampers, and seeing if it would pass scrutiny, but that's a lot of money to gamble on (but less than I've spent to try and get around the heretofore rules interps). I'd love to see this interpretation upheld, in the same light as we're using a poorly-worded rule to allow spherical bearing suspensions.

Whadya think? Any takers? Any arguments?

For more info, here's the original forum duscussion on Prod:

http://www.coloradoscca.org/prodcar/viewto...opic.php?t=2269
 
Greg:

What I think will happen is that once you buy the shocks, and somebody challanges you, you might win, but by next season, the rule will be re-phrased to correct the reading and you will be out of a few g's for useless shocks.

I had this happen some years ago when I just skimmed in to the Runoffs on a rules technicality. I argued my case, they had to relent, and first publication release of the next season had a re-phrase of the wording.
 
Sticky, sticky, sticky!

It all comes down to the shocks, then, doesn't it. One could argue that there is a cartridge that goes inside the shock, therefore the outer is a "sleeve," therefore illegal. I know of several strut-type cars that are this way (cartridge inside a housing) and I might protest a threaded housing, referring to it as a sleeve (but only if he/she beat me!
smile.gif
).

I know what you are saying, though. Kinda gets back to my other topic about A/C.

(I'd add more, but my broken finger prevents me from typing at a reasonable speed and it gets too frustrating...)

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
 
Not to torture the subject-but I believe that the rule as written states we are allowed to ADD an adjustable sleeve/perch to a standard shock. I agree that it cannot be permanently connected to the shell. In the case of a Koni "yellow" Sport shock there are NO threads on the body; sleeve legal this way. There are NO threads on a stock Honda shock-therefore sleeve is legal if removable.

If I read this correctly-one could assume that we can go out and buy shocks, such as QA-1 that are threaded body and actually install the spring perches on them in a fixed format-equal to stock location. This is where I disagree. The rule clearly permits threaded sleeves with adjustable perches in my opinion. What it clearly does not allow is a threaded perch device on the housing that is not part of the original design of the car.

Just another thought on the subject.

------------------
Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'99 Prelude=a sweet song
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

[This message has been edited by jc836 (edited December 18, 2003).]
 
Originally posted by jc836:
What it clearly does not allow is a threaded perch device on the housing that is not part of the original design of the car.
Click to expand...

emphasis mine

I think that is a bit of a leap from here to there.

GregA,

Go for it. I'd suggest that you get something that can be easily sold to a racer in another class. That way when/if they go back and clarify their wording so that it reflects their intentions, your wiz-bang dampners will have some value.



[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited December 18, 2003).]
 
I have seen many cars that use threaded body shocks (when the car did not originaly come equiped with them). They "beat" the rule by not using those threads for their perch, but instead slide a threaded sleeve over the threaded shock body and attach the perch to that. The sleve is not "perminatly attached so in theory it is legal (from what I have been lead to understand).

I say this "beats" the rule, because I think the rule was intended to keep costs down by not allowing $500+ shocks (I think at one point threaded bodied shocks were very expensive and far better).

To me I don't think their is any difference if the threads are attached or not, the difference is what is inside
wink.gif


Raymond Blethen

PS: My shocks are not threaded, anyone want to make some heafty donations so I can get some!!!

------------------
rstsignature.jpg

RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com
1st and 2nd 2003 ITB NARRC Championship
1st and 6th 2003 ITB NERRC Championship
3rd 2003 ITB ARRC Sprint Race
4th 2003 ITB ARRC Endoro
1st 2003 AS NERRC and NARRC Championships
 
Originally posted by Tom Blaney:
...but by next season, the rule will be re-phrased to correct the reading and you will be out of a few g's for useless shocks.
Click to expand...

Or, a group with some common sense will decide that the rule is antiquated and out-dated and doesn't prevent what it was originally intended to prevent (expensive purpose-built racing shocks... the rule isn't stopping people from buying them, machining off the threads, then adding the allowed threaded sleeve...
rolleyes.gif
) and the rule is eliminated or re-written to allow these shocks/struts...

Stranger things have happened...
wink.gif


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited December 18, 2003).]
 
Tom, I'm with you. That's a very likely scenario. However, look at what happened with the suspension mounting bushings: I can tell you, from experience with IT for over 15 years, that spherical bearings were never intended by allowing alternate materials for suspension bushings. However someone in SCCA supported the - in my opinion tortured - interpretation, likely because it followed the written rules.

In our case I believe the rule was intended to disallow threaded body shocks. However, this "new interpretation" is not nearly as tortured as the spherical bearings one; we simply have all been blinded by the assumed intention of the rule. Forest for the trees, and all that. I believe that if we're going to allow spherical bushings as 'alternate suspension bushing material' based on the written rule then it only follows that threaded body shocks are legal as well.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...a cartridge that goes inside the shock, therefore the outer is a \"sleeve,\" therefore illegal...</font>
Click to expand...

Bill, I disagree, because if you define the cartridge as the shock then I submit the housing is the sleeve, and since I can unscrew the housing cap and pull out the non-permanently-attach cartridge from inside, I'm still legal.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...My shocks are not threaded, anyone want to make some heafty donations so I can get some!!!</font>
Click to expand...


Raymond, we're probably back to a discussion similar to the engine build one, but to take full advantage of the IT rules you're going to easily spend as much or more on shocks without threads than with. We're not talking KYB AGX or drop-in Konis here. Folks that are in that market are not affected by this rules interpretation.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">The key word is \"or\". The phrases are read separate and both are prohibited.</font>
Click to expand...


USGuys, I'm not with you on this. The only "or" in that ruling is "Coil-over struts or shock absorbers,"; are you implying coil-over struts and shocks are illegal? You can add and remove "or" and the commas and my position still stands. The key here is the verbiage between the commas.

Folks, I don't think this is a stretch. I agree it's probably not what was originally intended, but neither was spherical bearings and the bottom line is there's nothing in the written rules that prohibits permanently-threaded-body shocks. Up to today I've made an erroneous ASSUMPTION based on my prior experience with IT, and by re-reading the rules I've decided that assumption was incorrect.

I'll summarize my position more plainly:

- ITCS D.5.b.1 allows alternate shocks as long as the pickup points are unmodifed. Gas or hydraulic, two external adjustments max. No remote reservoir, no adjustment while in motion.

This rule, absent any further restrictions, allows threaded body shocks.

- ITCS D.5.b.2 allows substitute struts, inserts, modified spring seats.

This rule, absent any further restrictions, allows threaded body struts.

- ITCS D.5.b.3 allows alternate suspension springs, as long as they are of the same type.

- ITCS D.5.b.4 has to do with leaf springs.

And the clincher:

- ITCS D.5.b.5 prohibits permanantly attaching threaded sleeves to a strut or shock absorber.

Now, logically and clearly, convince me that threaded body shocks- without sleeves - are not allowed in Improved Touring.

This may very well be a case where the rule was written long ago where even the THOUGHT of running threaded-body shocks was as unimaginable as developing an IT MOTEC engine management system using the stock wiring harness and ECU housing (oh, um, never mind on that analogy...) I've got a GCR from 1995 and that exact rule is in there; could we have imagined Penske shocks on a Regional-only car in 1995? I know that in 1986 when I was racing Improved Touring the trick shocks were Formula Monroe GPs or something like that.

Frankly, I'd rather see us take Darin's tack and allow them, because as noted I've personal spent more on my non-threaded-body shocks. But that opinion is not germane to the discussion.

Tawk amongst yahselves.
 
The evolution of the rules first allowed aftermarket shocks, struts, and springs. When this happened there was NO anticipation that a spring would sit on anything but the OE type and position of perch, since the springs would be the same ID and end design. There were no products on the market to put "real racing springs" on an ex-SS car.

I am generally not a fan of "tortured and strained" but I can see the logic in Greg's last presentation. That aside, it's officially a dumb rule in my book, too since street aftermarket technology has caught up with and passed "real racing spring" options.

K
 
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
I say this "beats" the rule, because I think the rule was intended to keep costs down by not allowing $500+ shocks (I think at one point threaded bodied shocks were very expensive and far better
Click to expand...

Funny how times change. We could have gotten pretty much off the shelf front struts that had more adjustability in them. But to comply with the rules, they had to be custom made, costing more money and the adjusability.
frown.gif


Diane
 
I'm a little late to the party but... Someone mentioned Morris Dampers towards the beginning of this thread. Buyer beware, they have taken many peoples $ and not delivered sh@#. Their phone # no longer works and they are in bankruptcy. The gentleman I work for sent them $1500.00 and some RX-7 spindles to build a set of struts. We neither have struts or spindles, let alone any hope of getting the $1500.00 back.

------------------
Nico
KCRaceware (816) 257-7305
[email protected]
 
Search for Morriss over at the prod page too.

Out of business, folks' money in hand.

That is, unless they've resurfaced in the last couple months. And if they have, be sure you know their history...
 
How about a threaded sleeve that bottoms on the clamp that holds the hub or whatever else it may bottom on.

It's not permanently attatched...........just slid over the strut.
 
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