Wheels
- Thread starter IPRESS
- Start date
If there is, someone'll pipe up, but I'd be surprised.
Back in the old days (oh, the kids' eyes are already glistening over) there was NOTHING out there at a good price, not even wheels as light at 15 pounds. Then a magical thing happened: Spec Miata. All of a sudden, these weeds started sprouting and EVERYbody wanted to sell wheels to SM cars. So, the competition is fierce for the 15x7 13# market.
Problem for the rest of us, there's not a lot of demand for 12.9# wheels. Or 12#. Or 11#. Or, really, even 9#. Oh, there's a lot of DESIRE for wheels like that, but not a lot of folks willing to ante up for them. So, the supply is low and the price is high.
When I was looking for wheels for the NX I found many inexpensive options at 13 pounds. However, from there the price immediately doubled for anything lighter. I finally had the good fortune of buying Anthony's Volks at a reasonable price (but still over twice the price each than 13 pounders, even in used condition.)
The $$/ pound value scale takes a vertical leap at 13.1 pounds then takes a dumper at 12.9 and below...
Back in the old days (oh, the kids' eyes are already glistening over) there was NOTHING out there at a good price, not even wheels as light at 15 pounds. Then a magical thing happened: Spec Miata. All of a sudden, these weeds started sprouting and EVERYbody wanted to sell wheels to SM cars. So, the competition is fierce for the 15x7 13# market.
Problem for the rest of us, there's not a lot of demand for 12.9# wheels. Or 12#. Or 11#. Or, really, even 9#. Oh, there's a lot of DESIRE for wheels like that, but not a lot of folks willing to ante up for them. So, the supply is low and the price is high.
When I was looking for wheels for the NX I found many inexpensive options at 13 pounds. However, from there the price immediately doubled for anything lighter. I finally had the good fortune of buying Anthony's Volks at a reasonable price (but still over twice the price each than 13 pounders, even in used condition.)
The $$/ pound value scale takes a vertical leap at 13.1 pounds then takes a dumper at 12.9 and below...
gran racing
Super Moderator
Kosel K1-TS, 15 x 7, 12.6 lbs, $150 each at Tire Rack
See, that's a good example of the "$$/weight" value ratio. Is a loss of 0.4 pounds (-3%) worth an extra $30 each (+25%) versus the regular K-1s? Or how about an extra $50 each (+50%) versus the $99 Kazera KZ-M? I certainly don't think so.
Faced with the choice of the 12.6# $99 KZ-M and 13# $149 K-1TS, I'd rather pocket the extra $200 and use it for much more efficient means of going 0.013437654 seconds per lap faster (like more track time, or maybe two extra spare wheels for rains...)
Like I said: $$/weight value scales takes a big dumper below 13 pounds...
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
I paid $214 each for my 9lb SSR's when the Tire Rack only had 2 sets left (SSR got bought and the new compnay was draining stock of old product before they introduced new versions). I bought them both. When trying to figure out if they were worth it, I talked with someone with a ton of experience. He said, "You have the opportunity to save 4lbs of unsprung PER corner for $400? NO BRAINER.
It was tough to swallow but when you put it in that context, it really is in the grand scheme of things.
The Motegi TrackLite's are $232 at 9.0lbs in 15x7 for the Miata.
The Wedsports TC005 are also nice at $219 - 10.7 lbs on closeout - down from $299!
These cars have so little torque, acceleration is hard to come by and handling is their strength...that I placed a high value on unsprung weight savings.
It was tough to swallow but when you put it in that context, it really is in the grand scheme of things.
The Motegi TrackLite's are $232 at 9.0lbs in 15x7 for the Miata.
The Wedsports TC005 are also nice at $219 - 10.7 lbs on closeout - down from $299!
These cars have so little torque, acceleration is hard to come by and handling is their strength...that I placed a high value on unsprung weight savings.
I agree, Andy. That's why I ponied up the money for the Volks. But $50 more each for 0.4 (zero point four) pounds weight savings? Insignificant.
Given your list of wheels, I'd drop the $232 for the 9 pounders, *IF* I'm willing to spend more than $100 per wheel. Mac says he's willing to spend $200, so in for a penny...how far from the best value are you willing to increment?
Take the price of the wheels and multiply it by the weight, and you can mathematically compare values: the higher the price, the higher the number; the heavier the wheel, the higher the number. Drop them on a chart in order of weight and you can see where they fit on the dollars-to-weight scale, your goal being to buy the wheel at the bottom apex of the chart. In that case, the lower the number, the less you're paying per "pound of weight savings" (all data from above and Tire Rack):
ASA EM-9 (19 pounds, $99): 1881
Borbet Type H (19 pounds, $99): 1881
ASA JS-5 (18 pounds, $99): 1872
Borbet Type B (17.5 pounds, $99): 1733
WedsSport SA-90 (17.2 pounds, $245): 4214
Grams Lights 57C (13.5 pounds, $99): 1337
Kazera KZ-M (13 pounds, $99): 1287
Kosei K-1 (13 pounds, $119): 1499
Kosei K-1 TS (12.6 pounds, $149): 1877
O.Z. Ultraleggera (12.0 pounds, $185): 2220
Wedsports TC005 (10.7 pounds, $219): 2343
Enkie RP-F1 41 (9.8 pounds, $185): 1813 <---pirate edit from below
Motegi TrackLite (9 pounds, $232): 2088
Andy's SSRs (9 pounds, $214): 1926
My used Volks (9 pounds, ~$250): ~2250
New Volks (9 pounds, ~$375): ~3375
There's a nice little area there where the 13-ish pound wheel at $99-$150 really stands out (thanks to the weeds). Of course, if money's not a factor, you buy the lightest wheels. Or, if there's a specific hard dollar limit (as in Mac's case) and you want the lowest weight wheel for that amount regardless of any other factors, then it doesn't matter.
But if you're looking to maximize economy within specific parameters, stuff like this helps. This is why I state that the 0.4 pounds of weight savings is not worth the extra $50 per wheel. - GA
Given your list of wheels, I'd drop the $232 for the 9 pounders, *IF* I'm willing to spend more than $100 per wheel. Mac says he's willing to spend $200, so in for a penny...how far from the best value are you willing to increment?
Take the price of the wheels and multiply it by the weight, and you can mathematically compare values: the higher the price, the higher the number; the heavier the wheel, the higher the number. Drop them on a chart in order of weight and you can see where they fit on the dollars-to-weight scale, your goal being to buy the wheel at the bottom apex of the chart. In that case, the lower the number, the less you're paying per "pound of weight savings" (all data from above and Tire Rack):
ASA EM-9 (19 pounds, $99): 1881
Borbet Type H (19 pounds, $99): 1881
ASA JS-5 (18 pounds, $99): 1872
Borbet Type B (17.5 pounds, $99): 1733
WedsSport SA-90 (17.2 pounds, $245): 4214
Grams Lights 57C (13.5 pounds, $99): 1337
Kazera KZ-M (13 pounds, $99): 1287
Kosei K-1 (13 pounds, $119): 1499
Kosei K-1 TS (12.6 pounds, $149): 1877
O.Z. Ultraleggera (12.0 pounds, $185): 2220
Wedsports TC005 (10.7 pounds, $219): 2343
Enkie RP-F1 41 (9.8 pounds, $185): 1813 <---pirate edit from below
Motegi TrackLite (9 pounds, $232): 2088
Andy's SSRs (9 pounds, $214): 1926
My used Volks (9 pounds, ~$250): ~2250
New Volks (9 pounds, ~$375): ~3375
There's a nice little area there where the 13-ish pound wheel at $99-$150 really stands out (thanks to the weeds). Of course, if money's not a factor, you buy the lightest wheels. Or, if there's a specific hard dollar limit (as in Mac's case) and you want the lowest weight wheel for that amount regardless of any other factors, then it doesn't matter.
But if you're looking to maximize economy within specific parameters, stuff like this helps. This is why I state that the 0.4 pounds of weight savings is not worth the extra $50 per wheel. - GA
philstireservice
New member
Now don't forget in most cases you are getting a forged wheel instead of a cast wheel for the additional $$$$. All my wheels for my EP car are forged.........2 sets SSR, 1 set Motegi and 1 set Volks
I've seen way to many cast wheels get blown apart from from some off road excursions or some curb hopping that many seem to enjoy.......well we all enjoy it, even if it is really tough on the car as well as the wheels....
Phil
I've seen way to many cast wheels get blown apart from from some off road excursions or some curb hopping that many seem to enjoy.......well we all enjoy it, even if it is really tough on the car as well as the wheels....
Phil
Vaughn,
I had the same prolem with the Z. I went with some Spin Werkes wheels. I got them from Racer Parts Wholesale. Every wheel is custom made. They drill the center to your bolt pattern, then offset it to your request in a rim shell, and weld it up. They're light and not super expensive. They look like circle track wheels but they're better than stock....if that helps you.
R
I had the same prolem with the Z. I went with some Spin Werkes wheels. I got them from Racer Parts Wholesale. Every wheel is custom made. They drill the center to your bolt pattern, then offset it to your request in a rim shell, and weld it up. They're light and not super expensive. They look like circle track wheels but they're better than stock....if that helps you.
R
Thanks for the tip, I'll check 'em out... I have this absurdly large bolt pattern, Porsche standard 5x130mm. Upside is most any Porsche rim will bolt on; downside is all the Porsche aftermarket rims start at 16x8 and go from there!
Eah, nothing in 6" and still not exactly cheap...
Eah, nothing in 6" and still not exactly cheap...
I just tried the Motegi track light 2 on my ITA Miata. I have been using Pro Race 2's.
I went to the expense of mounting new tires on both wheels (the 10 lb Motegis and the 13.5 lb PR2's) and testing for the advantage of the lighter wheels. For me this was a very expensive test!
Same track, ran 3 laps on the PR 2's and then 3 laps on the Motegis both with stickers. In my case the lap times were within a 10th of a second and my traqmate showed almost no improvement in acceleration or braking. Because my car is lacking in horsepower compared to some of my competitors I really wanted the 10lb wheels to be a big help. They did not seem to make any improvement. The track was Moroso, so the test might have had a different outcome on a faster track like Sebring or Daytona.
The problem I had with the Motegis was that they had a noticeably different 'feel' to the PR2's. The light wheels seemed to me to be a little vague in both turn-in and in turns. I suspect that the Motegis flex more than the PR2's. If I had more time/money/expertise I might be able to work on car setup and tire pressure to optimise what advantage the lighter wheels might offer.
For now, I will stick with the PR2's and maybe try the Motegis at Daytona and see if they show any top end speed advantage.
I went to the expense of mounting new tires on both wheels (the 10 lb Motegis and the 13.5 lb PR2's) and testing for the advantage of the lighter wheels. For me this was a very expensive test!
Same track, ran 3 laps on the PR 2's and then 3 laps on the Motegis both with stickers. In my case the lap times were within a 10th of a second and my traqmate showed almost no improvement in acceleration or braking. Because my car is lacking in horsepower compared to some of my competitors I really wanted the 10lb wheels to be a big help. They did not seem to make any improvement. The track was Moroso, so the test might have had a different outcome on a faster track like Sebring or Daytona.
The problem I had with the Motegis was that they had a noticeably different 'feel' to the PR2's. The light wheels seemed to me to be a little vague in both turn-in and in turns. I suspect that the Motegis flex more than the PR2's. If I had more time/money/expertise I might be able to work on car setup and tire pressure to optimise what advantage the lighter wheels might offer.
For now, I will stick with the PR2's and maybe try the Motegis at Daytona and see if they show any top end speed advantage.
NutDriverRighty
New member
I may be wrong, but I thought that Kosei wheels could be sold as "blanks" to wheel shops and then have the wheel shops drill the bolt pattern that you need. Anyone else know of this, or do I need to up my medicine again?
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
I wouldn't expect quantifiable acelleration or braking for those 2-4 lbs. What I did expect was longevity and consistancy improvments during both sprint races and over the course of a season. Every little bit helps. I find that my Miata is not only faster than most cars on the track toward the latter part of races but it seems to get faster as the race goes on. I have been attributing this to driver 'error' - meaning I could be faster sooner in the race...but who knows.
On the handling difference, I am willing to bet that the Motegis have a different offset that the Pro Race's. The tuner I have been working with really like to monkey with spacers and staggerd offsets - and it is paying off in spades.
I note similar response over the course of a race with my car and times; I tend to continue to grind down the lap times, whereas my competition tends to fade. I think it's a combination of setup and driver technique.
In scaling and aligning my car, I tend to do post-race config; therefore my balance may be a little poor at the start of a race. However, my gas tank sits over the rear axle, and my car is very sensitive to a 3-gal difference; if I had it handling just right at the beginning of a race, it'd get rather loose towards the end - just as I'm getting tired and more likely to lose it. So this is a conscious choice on my part.
All the same, it would seem that it's more important to be faster earlier in the race, while you still tend to be in contact with other drivers and passes are easier; if you fade later, you're less likely to have anyone near you and need that last 10th, having already pulled away and spread out...
I'd better stop derailing this thread!
In scaling and aligning my car, I tend to do post-race config; therefore my balance may be a little poor at the start of a race. However, my gas tank sits over the rear axle, and my car is very sensitive to a 3-gal difference; if I had it handling just right at the beginning of a race, it'd get rather loose towards the end - just as I'm getting tired and more likely to lose it. So this is a conscious choice on my part.
All the same, it would seem that it's more important to be faster earlier in the race, while you still tend to be in contact with other drivers and passes are easier; if you fade later, you're less likely to have anyone near you and need that last 10th, having already pulled away and spread out...
I'd better stop derailing this thread!
OK, after going over Greg's chart (my head was spinning like Linda Blair in the Exorcist 
) and getting some pretty good info from different places, I got a pretty good idea of what I was up against. Since 30 offset is what the miata needs I had to figure that in also. My solution actually came right down the street at my friendly local (chain) tire store. Enkie RP-F1 41 offset 15X7 (((((9.8))))))POUNDS $185. I have some 10mm spacers on the way to get me close to 30 offset so things should be good.
Greg add these wheels to your chart and it should become a Wheel Sticky for the Forum!
Thanks for all the info especially the chart as it made me think hard on how far and how much I need to do. (And at what cost.)
The other cool thing was I found another place to buy tires pretty cheap. I still plan on using the tire services at the tracks, (buying and mounting) but it is nice to have several local options.
Mac
) and getting some pretty good info from different places, I got a pretty good idea of what I was up against. Since 30 offset is what the miata needs I had to figure that in also. My solution actually came right down the street at my friendly local (chain) tire store. Enkie RP-F1 41 offset 15X7 (((((9.8))))))POUNDS $185. I have some 10mm spacers on the way to get me close to 30 offset so things should be good.Greg add these wheels to your chart and it should become a Wheel Sticky for the Forum!
Thanks for all the info especially the chart as it made me think hard on how far and how much I need to do. (And at what cost.)
The other cool thing was I found another place to buy tires pretty cheap. I still plan on using the tire services at the tracks, (buying and mounting) but it is nice to have several local options.
Mac