Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Tha's an ITS RX-7 my friend. Fastest T3 RX-8 in the race was Shannon M.
June Fastrack Out
- Thread starter JeffYoung
- Start date
Tha's an ITS RX-7 my friend. Fastest T3 RX-8 in the race was Shannon M.
Check the enduro. The McMasters Rx-8 did finish higher, but did not have the best lap. The Huffmaster Rx-8 ran a 1'39.60 in the enduro, and qualified at a 1'39.07. The best ITR E36 lap for that weekend (including qualifying) was 1'40.93.
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Z3_GoCar
New member
When I look at those results, the first thing I noticed was that only a handfull of racers come from West of the Mississippi, none from any rockie mountain states or the Pacific coast. I wonder what the participation will be like this year, both at the RO's and the ARRC might be a slim year for club racing championships.
James
Eagle7
New member
And the best ITS time was 1:39.56, so now we know that ITR is a slower class than ITS. What was your point again?
dj10
New member
I guess your talking about Huffmaster in Enduro qualifying? Don't judge a book by it's cover. How does anyone know if I had a good suspension setup for that weekend or not? I only want whats fair. If the weight is fair where it's at, ok, if it's not just give them a fair shake.
Andy, that was a Porsche that beat me not a BMW.
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Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
I was looking at the Sprint results, not enduro. And yes, it was the 944S2...sorry!
Rabbit07
New member
Then maybe some "real world data" needs to be applied to the Gen2! And if all this lip service about process weight is true then some one please explain why the hell the stratus with the same SOHC engine as the ITA Neon is 550 lbs heavier in ITA!!!!??????? Something is very wrong here!!!!!
And the best ITS time was 1:39.56, so now we know that ITR is a slower class than ITS. What was your point again?
The best ITR time for the weekend was a 1'39.11, so no ITS wasn't faster. I certainly expect ITR to get faster as the cars get more developed. However, the E36 doesn't have much room left for improvement. An Rx-8 prepped mostly to T3 specs surely does.
Guys - do you really, REALLY want to get in the business of comparing single lap times among disparate cars, at one track, on one weekend, with ALL of the other variables not accounted for...???!!
You are our own worst enemies.
And Andy - look up "enabler" in the dictionary. Don't encourage this insanity.
Chris - The recent Neon/Stratus specifications all went through the process. My point was that, if the first generation models did NOT go through the same process - if they got "real worlded" - it would account for the differences.
K
You are our own worst enemies.
And Andy - look up "enabler" in the dictionary. Don't encourage this insanity.
Chris - The recent Neon/Stratus specifications all went through the process. My point was that, if the first generation models did NOT go through the same process - if they got "real worlded" - it would account for the differences.
K
JeffYoung
New member
Yes! My car ran a 2:00 there in 2003. It should therefore weigh 10 lbs. Who do I write to?
Guys - do you really, REALLY want to get in the business of comparing single lap times among disparate cars, at one track, on one weekend, with ALL of the other variables not accounted for...???!!
You are our own worst enemies.
And Andy - look up "enabler" in the dictionary. Don't encourage this insanity.
Chris - The recent Neon/Stratus specifications all went through the process. My point was that, if the first generation models did NOT go through the same process - if they got "real worlded" - it would account for the differences.
K
Rabbit07
New member
If this is true then "WHY" is the Stratus heavier than the Gen2 ACR Neon that has 20 more HP? I like that there is a formula being used to class cars, but I would like it if it was the same formula for a all the cars in IT!!!!!!!!
If you could, please show me the numbers and how each of these examples works out in ITA
Gen 1 Neon SOHC
Gen 1 Neon DOHC
Gen 2 Neon ACR
95-99 Stratus SOHC
This makes no sense to me why the weights on these 4 cars should be so much different?
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
IIRC, the Stratus is a misprint. The car that was requested was the 6cyl and thus the weight. Somehow, the 4cyl spec line was copied.
I will look into it.
I will look into it.
Eagle7
New member
If it's the same RX-8 that Ray had at MidOhio in August, it's his old Grand-Am car from when they ran with SpeedSource, not a T3 car. I think it was pretty well developed.
dj10
New member
Marty I believe you are correct. He had 2 - RX-8's, 1, a T3 and the other the GrandAm rx-8
I'm quoting this post, but I really could've picked just about any of them in this thread. This whole debate illustrates the very slippery slope the ITAC stepped upon when it decided to use real-world numbers in the weighting process. It may (or may not) be a necessary evil, but it muddies the waters big time.
The ITAC has demonstrated it has no issues using real world numbers to bump up the weight of a car. Now they have to use that mindset to drop the weight of a car. How low is too low though? If the car gets weighted to heavy it'll never get the weight dropped because it's impossible to prove a negative (the negative being that the car can't make more power). If it's weighted too light then how do you prove it needs more weight?
PCAs have already been used in IT. They were implemented under the guise of adding weight to cars during the re-weighting, but they were PCAs nonetheless. Anybody thinking PCAs haven't been used should wake up.
The ITAC had better get a handle on how they plan to use real-world data because it's becoming an issue. I stopped reading the discussion concerning periodically re-evaluating cars because it was clear that was going nowhere. If you're going to use real-world data then you had better develop a process for how that data is going to be used.
Of course, as Greg pointed out, the days of people sharing their engine performance information are long gone so I'm wondering how the ITAC plans on getting real-world information. Why would anyone prove their car can make more power if it's going get them weight?
I think the ITAC is attempting to do the right thing, but this is the path that they started down when the grand re-weighting was implemented. The consequences of that are now becoming more apparent.
David
lateapex911
Super Moderator
David, good points, but, real world data is, of course, the origin of the estimates..
If the first gen RX-7 genre were to be handled the same as , oh, say the average IT car, we'd have 1st gen RX-7s making 137 flywheel, and 116 WHP, and they'd weigh....1993 pounds (assuming they could hit that weight...)
is that what we want?
In some cases, there need to be usage of real world data.
In one case, a car was being examined, as it was already classified. Research was done. Two different engine builders with dozens of that engine built (to IT specs) were contacted, (out of the blue) and they both responded with numbers that were within .5% of each other, In cases where the person requesting classification is supplying the "real world" number, it's obvious that there is a conflict of interest, and those numbers must be treated as such.
If the first gen RX-7 genre were to be handled the same as , oh, say the average IT car, we'd have 1st gen RX-7s making 137 flywheel, and 116 WHP, and they'd weigh....1993 pounds (assuming they could hit that weight...)
is that what we want?
In some cases, there need to be usage of real world data.
In one case, a car was being examined, as it was already classified. Research was done. Two different engine builders with dozens of that engine built (to IT specs) were contacted, (out of the blue) and they both responded with numbers that were within .5% of each other, In cases where the person requesting classification is supplying the "real world" number, it's obvious that there is a conflict of interest, and those numbers must be treated as such.
Z3_GoCar
New member
This is an excellant post. One reason torque might not be so important is that you can always gear lower for more wheel torque, but no matter how you gear you can't get more horsepower. The second reason the torque is less important is that both the S2k and Rx8 have red-lines that are 1500-2500 rpm above anything the BMW can get to with out creating vented blocks. So lower gearing for more wheel torque will still result in the same ultimate red-line speed, and end of straight speed. Thirdly, both these cars have the extra usable gear availible in a six speed transmission vs. the five speed.
In the end I
the ITAC.James
Super Swift
New member
T3 boys! it even says it on the side.
Eagle 7 & DJ10,
I understand any confusion but the time was turned by their T3 RX-8.
Check out this link
http://photos.hydrous.net/photo.php?photo=19832
Be sure to look at the class designations on the side of the car... ITU & T3...
It might be a F1 car with Mazda livery but I think we need to call a skunk a skunk.
Rotor's are scary fast!!
It's all about power under the curve.
Eagle 7 & DJ10,
I understand any confusion but the time was turned by their T3 RX-8.
Check out this link
http://photos.hydrous.net/photo.php?photo=19832
Be sure to look at the class designations on the side of the car... ITU & T3...
It might be a F1 car with Mazda livery but I think we need to call a skunk a skunk.
Rotor's are scary fast!!
It's all about power under the curve.
Eagle7
New member
Your eyes are a lot better than mine - saw the ITU in another pic but couldn't find the T3. OTOH, I don't know why I'm even responding - this whole discussion is totally meaningless.
rcc85
New member
I thought the Stratus weight was way off. So it should be the 2.5L V6 Stratus in ITA at 3000 lbs? That's not a bad engine (Mitsubishi). Not as good as the 3.0L V6 (which I think was about 200 hp) I had in my '02 Stratus coupe, but it could be an interesting build. Hey, maybe that's what happened when they classified the Daytona. They thought it was a V6!!
Bob Clifton
#05 ITB Dodge Daytona (with a broken engine from Pocono)
Bob Clifton
#05 ITB Dodge Daytona (with a broken engine from Pocono)