12 hours of Nelson
- Thread starter Hahn63
- Start date
LarryWinkelman
New member
Any info?
It's July... still no supps or provisional entry list. The NL website does not appear to have been updated in 6+ weeks. What's the hold up?
It's July... still no supps or provisional entry list. The NL website does not appear to have been updated in 6+ weeks. What's the hold up?
Dave, I will most likely be running the next day as well. Let me know if you guys need some extra crew help, I have done a few 24rhour nelson races working over the wall. Figure I my as well come up for the whole weekend.
Chris
RSTPerformance
New member
Best of luck to competitors on a successfull weekend and the region on a successfull event.
Unfortunatly we have been turned away because our driver/car owner can't run on his novice permit. We are all very disapointed (and I am turned off, posibly forever) because of this. We were able to get this novice into SCCA racing with excitement to do endurance races (this race and Summit are challenges we have wanted to do for years) and now to get tuned away from an event that seems to be strugling for entraints is a real bummer.
I don't understand why a novice permit isn't good enough for this regional race, especially on a team that has been racing in SCCA for as long as we have been. I never liked the National/Regional thing, and I really don't like this. We should be trying to help members get into the racing they are interested in, not turning them away...
Additionaly if the organizers don't think a school is good enough to sign someone off to run a regional event then we need re evaluate our schools.
Raymond "spending my limited money to race at Lime Rock in the PRO-IT instead" Blethen
Unfortunatly we have been turned away because our driver/car owner can't run on his novice permit. We are all very disapointed (and I am turned off, posibly forever) because of this. We were able to get this novice into SCCA racing with excitement to do endurance races (this race and Summit are challenges we have wanted to do for years) and now to get tuned away from an event that seems to be strugling for entraints is a real bummer.
I don't understand why a novice permit isn't good enough for this regional race, especially on a team that has been racing in SCCA for as long as we have been. I never liked the National/Regional thing, and I really don't like this. We should be trying to help members get into the racing they are interested in, not turning them away...
Additionaly if the organizers don't think a school is good enough to sign someone off to run a regional event then we need re evaluate our schools.
Raymond "spending my limited money to race at Lime Rock in the PRO-IT instead" Blethen
Last edited:
I'd be a bit concerned letting (hell, even encouraging) someone enter an enduro on a Novice Permit. Yeah, I'm all over the "but it's only 1-2-3 races of experience difference" argument; hell, I think I even invented that debate. But while it's only 1, 2, 3 races differences, it's those first few critical races on the extremely steep part of the learning curve. Dropping someone with minimal competition experience into an environment totally foreign to what you get in a regular SCCA school or sprint weekend is probably not a good thing.
And, to be consistent, I'm also not happy with allowing Novice Permits into key high-vis, high-stress races such as the ARRC and IT*Fest. And this, coming from someone whose first race back after 9 years was the OMP Challenge at LRP...
Endurance racing is a whole 'nother animal, one that requires a totally different set of skills, themselves dependent on basic experiences/assumptions. I understand your frustration, Raymond, but I personally have to agree with the decision. And I suspect if you really think about it objectively, you would too... - GA
And, to be consistent, I'm also not happy with allowing Novice Permits into key high-vis, high-stress races such as the ARRC and IT*Fest. And this, coming from someone whose first race back after 9 years was the OMP Challenge at LRP...
Endurance racing is a whole 'nother animal, one that requires a totally different set of skills, themselves dependent on basic experiences/assumptions. I understand your frustration, Raymond, but I personally have to agree with the decision. And I suspect if you really think about it objectively, you would too... - GA
StephenB
New member
I actually agree with Raymond which isn't all that often 
And not just because I was going to be a co-driver... I have not competed in a 12 hr race so I can't specifically speek to that length of a race, nor can I speak to racing at speed at night however I have run in a 9 lap sprint race and a 3 hr race both at the glen. I have also raced in the ARRC and the 3 hr at Atlanta. In BOTH situations the sprint race had TONS more happening. People are less patient in passing and lapping. In a sprint race you cannot wait like you can in an endurance race. Endurance racing to me has always been more about consistancy and patience. Sprint racing uses the same concept but time is not on your side. I also think that for a novice to race WITH drivers that have licenses would be a great experience for them and help them learn all aspects of racing wheel to wheel. (I agree that a team of 3 novices who have never raced probably shouldn't run a race that requires fueling and pit stops) As a driver I would rather race against a novice in an endurance race than the 12 lap IT race at LRP in a few weeks. I am posititve that the LRP race will not give a novice as much experience in 12 laps and it will be a much more stressfull situation for them.
As I said before I haven't run a 12 Hr enduro so I would love to hear a reason why anyone thinks it's not a great idea. I personally (honestly) thought that running in enduros was a great way to get some of our crew members on track and encourage them to become more active SCCA members.
Greg, what is "totally different" that makes it a bad idea? (Not an attack I honestly don't know)
cjb25hs, great idea but the entire purpose for us to do this was to share the expense and to get our friend LOTS of track time and experience. The expense involved in running a double race is at lest 50% of what 1 driver would have spent at the 12hr. So yes Cost is a big reason he can't do this. NHMS is to close... starts tomorrow and the supps didn't come out for the 12 hr until this week. I did post about the Glen double but that counts as 1 race because it is 1 sanction # unless he did the regional and the pro-It but that cost is more than the 12Hr would be for him! I also think that running a 12 lap race at LRP is not going to be a good 1st race to race in along with the Pro-It that same day. However we have not ruled this out and we are contemplating the additional GRAND that this will cost us.
In the end Rules are rules, I understand Raymonds frustration and the most we can hope for is for some good dialogue on Real reasons this was a bad idea and then the "powers that be" can then decide for future events.
Thanks, and Raymond chilll dude
JK
Stephen
And not just because I was going to be a co-driver... I have not competed in a 12 hr race so I can't specifically speek to that length of a race, nor can I speak to racing at speed at night however I have run in a 9 lap sprint race and a 3 hr race both at the glen. I have also raced in the ARRC and the 3 hr at Atlanta. In BOTH situations the sprint race had TONS more happening. People are less patient in passing and lapping. In a sprint race you cannot wait like you can in an endurance race. Endurance racing to me has always been more about consistancy and patience. Sprint racing uses the same concept but time is not on your side. I also think that for a novice to race WITH drivers that have licenses would be a great experience for them and help them learn all aspects of racing wheel to wheel. (I agree that a team of 3 novices who have never raced probably shouldn't run a race that requires fueling and pit stops) As a driver I would rather race against a novice in an endurance race than the 12 lap IT race at LRP in a few weeks. I am posititve that the LRP race will not give a novice as much experience in 12 laps and it will be a much more stressfull situation for them.As I said before I haven't run a 12 Hr enduro so I would love to hear a reason why anyone thinks it's not a great idea. I personally (honestly) thought that running in enduros was a great way to get some of our crew members on track and encourage them to become more active SCCA members.
Greg, what is "totally different" that makes it a bad idea? (Not an attack I honestly don't know)
cjb25hs, great idea but the entire purpose for us to do this was to share the expense and to get our friend LOTS of track time and experience. The expense involved in running a double race is at lest 50% of what 1 driver would have spent at the 12hr. So yes Cost is a big reason he can't do this. NHMS is to close... starts tomorrow and the supps didn't come out for the 12 hr until this week. I did post about the Glen double but that counts as 1 race because it is 1 sanction # unless he did the regional and the pro-It but that cost is more than the 12Hr would be for him! I also think that running a 12 lap race at LRP is not going to be a good 1st race to race in along with the Pro-It that same day. However we have not ruled this out and we are contemplating the additional GRAND that this will cost us.
In the end Rules are rules, I understand Raymonds frustration and the most we can hope for is for some good dialogue on Real reasons this was a bad idea and then the "powers that be" can then decide for future events.
Thanks, and Raymond chilll dude
JKStephen
Bill Miller
New member
Tough call on this one. Raymond, I'd say that if your friend has no races on his novice permit (just his schools), that Greg is right, a 12-hr endurance race is not the place for him to start. It could be a larger field than he's seen before, and it will certainly have a wider range of cars (classes) and driver talent than he's seen before. Get him a couple of Regionals under his belt before hand. I know there's added cost associated with it, but the experience will be invaluable.
joeg,
In Raymond's defense, the supps were just issued. I don't believe all endurance races restrict those on Novice permits.
What's a bit out of wack w/ the licensing structure in my mind, is that you can pretty much run any car that you want. You can rent some guy's ITC car for your schools and get signed off on, and then go jump in a GT1 or a FA, and start running Regionals. Not that it happens all that often, but I don't believe that there's anything the GCR that prevents it. I know I'd sure be concerned if I saw rookie stripes on a FA or a GT1 car.
joeg,
In Raymond's defense, the supps were just issued. I don't believe all endurance races restrict those on Novice permits.
What's a bit out of wack w/ the licensing structure in my mind, is that you can pretty much run any car that you want. You can rent some guy's ITC car for your schools and get signed off on, and then go jump in a GT1 or a FA, and start running Regionals. Not that it happens all that often, but I don't believe that there's anything the GCR that prevents it. I know I'd sure be concerned if I saw rookie stripes on a FA or a GT1 car.
I have never liked seeing novice permits at longer races. When I've signed up to go do a 12 or 24 hour race there is so much more riding on my stints than for a 20 minute sprint. In a sprint any mistake will cost you, but there aren't 2 or 3 other drivers waiting in the pitlane to get a turn, nor are there 5 to 10 guys who gave up their weekend (and then some) to come help change tires & fuel the car. There are enough ways to damage the car just by dropping a wheel off the track, you don't need help from others. You certainly don't need inexperience to add to the mix.
Sprint races don't have pit stops and driver changes which put a driver out in a hot car but perhaps w/ questionable conditions mid race.
Sprint races don't have 120 minute stints, 10+ different classes of cars together (think ITC vrs some ITE monster), dark, weather that goes from dry to downpour to dry in a single stint, cars that handle different when full of fuel vrs empty. The list goes on.
Go look up the Car & Driver review of what they did in an MX-5 last year the Nelson 24 hour and then ask yourself if novice drivers make sense.
The licesnsing process leaves a little to be desired in some cases. Just because you've gotten through 2 days of school means bupkis at times. Maybe I'm self centered but I'd rather have people learn at a race where their exposure is smaller.
Yes it sucks to have your plan changed, but you should be able to find another driver.
Matt
Sprint races don't have pit stops and driver changes which put a driver out in a hot car but perhaps w/ questionable conditions mid race.
Sprint races don't have 120 minute stints, 10+ different classes of cars together (think ITC vrs some ITE monster), dark, weather that goes from dry to downpour to dry in a single stint, cars that handle different when full of fuel vrs empty. The list goes on.
Go look up the Car & Driver review of what they did in an MX-5 last year the Nelson 24 hour and then ask yourself if novice drivers make sense.
The licesnsing process leaves a little to be desired in some cases. Just because you've gotten through 2 days of school means bupkis at times. Maybe I'm self centered but I'd rather have people learn at a race where their exposure is smaller.
Yes it sucks to have your plan changed, but you should be able to find another driver.
Matt
RSTPerformance
New member
Well... I respect everyones thoughts and after much thought I agree that having a novice on a team certainly adds risk to the team, and I would not pay for a ride on a rental if one of the members was a novice, HOWEVER... I don't think that an experienced team should be turned away just because they are willing to give a "novice" a try. An enduro is a great way to get someone into SCCA racing whom wants a good value (track time) for the buck.
I do agree an entire team of novices should not be allowed as they might be a risk to others and/or themselves as a collective group lacking experience. I also might agree that when we have the demand (as a club) that some races of higher level should have some restrictions on experience. I am not aware of any current SCCA races that have full fields though.
Lack of experience in driving alone is NOT a good reason... A sprint race has far more risk/action and people travel just as far and spend just as much money on an entry. I think a novice is more likely to vet in trouble Ina sprint race than an enduro. I hate to say it (and do not keen to degrade or insult) but I think an enduro is more like a super long practice session as a majority of the race most people are just making consistant solid laps, not battling door handle to door handle. Endoros are a TEAM effort not a driver effort.
To me the risk is not on the novice but rather the stewards. The stewards should Be doing thier job and should pull a novice or expirenced driver off the track if they are a hazard. As a steward I have done it, nope it wasn't fun but I agree, safety is number one.
Stereotyping a "novice" as a bad driver is poor business and As I hope someone has realized for the future hurts entries and will not help bring back this or any race to the stature it once had. I would say this if was our friend or not.
Please feel free to continue a debate, I think the people in this region read this and I hope will use the feedback for future events and members... Let's face it by the time another event comes along like this our friend will have a full regional, so my complaining really won't help me, but maybe the next guy.
Raymond "am I way off on this?" Blethen
I do agree an entire team of novices should not be allowed as they might be a risk to others and/or themselves as a collective group lacking experience. I also might agree that when we have the demand (as a club) that some races of higher level should have some restrictions on experience. I am not aware of any current SCCA races that have full fields though.
Lack of experience in driving alone is NOT a good reason... A sprint race has far more risk/action and people travel just as far and spend just as much money on an entry. I think a novice is more likely to vet in trouble Ina sprint race than an enduro. I hate to say it (and do not keen to degrade or insult) but I think an enduro is more like a super long practice session as a majority of the race most people are just making consistant solid laps, not battling door handle to door handle. Endoros are a TEAM effort not a driver effort.
To me the risk is not on the novice but rather the stewards. The stewards should Be doing thier job and should pull a novice or expirenced driver off the track if they are a hazard. As a steward I have done it, nope it wasn't fun but I agree, safety is number one.
Stereotyping a "novice" as a bad driver is poor business and As I hope someone has realized for the future hurts entries and will not help bring back this or any race to the stature it once had. I would say this if was our friend or not.
Please feel free to continue a debate, I think the people in this region read this and I hope will use the feedback for future events and members... Let's face it by the time another event comes along like this our friend will have a full regional, so my complaining really won't help me, but maybe the next guy.
Raymond "am I way off on this?" Blethen
Bill Miller
New member
Raymond,
On one hand, you say 'safety is number one', but on the other you mention how races don't have full fields. It sounds as if you would be willing to compromise safety in the interest of filling the field. If that's not what you meant, I apologize for putting words in your mouth, but that's the way it comes across.
And there are restrictions on driver experience at every National race. No National license, you don't race. I don't agree w/ the National / Regional license distinction, but it's there. And who would you consider to be more experienced, someone that runs 2 races a year, just to keep their license, or someone that runs 8, 10, 12, or more races a year?
I think maybe you're a bit too close to this issue, and seem to have lost a bit of your objectivity. I also disagree w/ your assessment that an endurance race is 'one long practice session'. Sure, consistency is key, as is not using up the car too soon, but when you've got people that are still on the same lap, after 12+ hours of racing, I think that's a bit more than casually clicking off laps.
To me, having someone with no racing experience on a long (12+ hour) endurance team, is a real baptism by fire. As Matt pointed out, you're throwing a LOT more at them than they saw in school. You could just as easily overwhelm them, and turn them off to racing.
This comment has me scratching my head.
I thought you had said that your friend w/ the novice permit was the car owner for the car that you were going to run @ Nelson. Are you guys not paying for that ride?
Heck yeah we could use extra help! I'll let Chad know. Thanks a bunch for the offer.
This is looks like it's going to be a very fun weekend. I love the idea of drawing for starting position in the qualifying races, shade of Saturday night short track racing! It'll put on quite a show!
I did my first ESCORT enduro on my brand new "pro" license, on the strength of two schools, three regionals, and a double national weekend.
And it was a bad idea.
I knew it was a bad idea while I was doing it, but of course I still did it. I also got lucky and didn't have any "bad things" happen.
I've also been the victim of novices in enduros - most recently the "Hella incident" at VIR, where they do by the way let novices in on their permit.
Traffic has an entirely different dynamic in an enduro. In a 20 minute sprint race, it's VERY clear who is lapping whom, the fast guys might catch the slow guys twice at the most, and groups are generally way more homogenous in terms of performance than in an enduro. The cars' performance also changes over the course of the race, with brakes going to crap, cars slowing, lights not functioning, etc.
Add darkness to the mix. And a greater likelihood of CHANGING weather conditions over the course of one stint. Doing a sprint race in the rain is nothing like going from dry track, to wet, back to dry on slicks at someplace like Nelson. (I did it at the 24 - ask Greg how scared I was. And I LOVE the wet.)
...plus fatigue, long stints, heat, and dehydration. All affect judgment. Without some reserves gained by experience, that can be a major issue.
And its NELSON LEDGES. Room for error in most places approaches "zero," while the cost of that error approaches infiniti.
And the vague suggestion that an enduro is somehow safer because we're all out there milling around at 90% represents a HUGE misunderstanding of what most of us are doing. The fastest laps Pablo has ever turned at Summit and VIR happened late in their enduros - and in the case of VIR at night.
I'm personally impressed that Novices won't be allowed.
K
PS - if you are interested in the Nelson 12 please email me, even if you have in the past and haven't heard back recently. I've been living out of a suitcase for nearly a month and my traveling laptop doesn't have all of my past correspondence saved on it...
And it was a bad idea.
I knew it was a bad idea while I was doing it, but of course I still did it. I also got lucky and didn't have any "bad things" happen.
I've also been the victim of novices in enduros - most recently the "Hella incident" at VIR, where they do by the way let novices in on their permit.
Traffic has an entirely different dynamic in an enduro. In a 20 minute sprint race, it's VERY clear who is lapping whom, the fast guys might catch the slow guys twice at the most, and groups are generally way more homogenous in terms of performance than in an enduro. The cars' performance also changes over the course of the race, with brakes going to crap, cars slowing, lights not functioning, etc.
Add darkness to the mix. And a greater likelihood of CHANGING weather conditions over the course of one stint. Doing a sprint race in the rain is nothing like going from dry track, to wet, back to dry on slicks at someplace like Nelson. (I did it at the 24 - ask Greg how scared I was. And I LOVE the wet.)
...plus fatigue, long stints, heat, and dehydration. All affect judgment. Without some reserves gained by experience, that can be a major issue.
And its NELSON LEDGES. Room for error in most places approaches "zero," while the cost of that error approaches infiniti.
And the vague suggestion that an enduro is somehow safer because we're all out there milling around at 90% represents a HUGE misunderstanding of what most of us are doing. The fastest laps Pablo has ever turned at Summit and VIR happened late in their enduros - and in the case of VIR at night.
I'm personally impressed that Novices won't be allowed.
K
PS - if you are interested in the Nelson 12 please email me, even if you have in the past and haven't heard back recently. I've been living out of a suitcase for nearly a month and my traveling laptop doesn't have all of my past correspondence saved on it...
+1 with Kirk and Greg. I'd been racing for 13 years before my first enduro and still couldn't believe the difference. In your early races, the ability to focus and manage adrenaline for 20 minutes is hard enough. Now try it for 2+ hours with multi-class speeds, dehydration, fatigue, changing conditions and vehicle dynamics while maintaining team strategy and using car saving tactics. Not an appropriate environment for a recent driver school graduate to hone his/her racecraft. Decision making skills deteriorate......Safety becomes an issue.
Regards,
Chuck
Regards,
Chuck