A word from the CRB on the recent changes...

I think the SIR is fine and dandy if it works as billed, but make this thing go away by simply adding a SIR on the Mazda sized to its magical hp limit ( I think I have seen 200 or 210 hp floated around here).. This problem will go away as the "perfect" ITS car will have a absolute max output as well. Slowly add SIR's ( using the "process" numbers) to ITS cars that seem to come out of nowhere then. Eventually ITS will have a legit hp ceiling....
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Fred, you are on the money here. I for one would be the first to lead the charge on any car that showed it was outside the performance index of the class. I don't see the RZ7 as being there but I could be proved wrong with some solid info. If that were the case I would be allover writing letters to help with that.
 
So Bill, What make you so sure the ITAC floated the idae to the CRB first....?

I will ask this question for all you folks that say 3100 lbs would be a piece of cake. Have you every raced a car over 3000 lbs? I have and I have done it recently. 3368 with driver and 8.5 inch wide wheels.
245 40 18's even with that much tire the car is giving up about 12 mins into a race. SIR's are here to stay and I for one am all for it. And the argument that weight would be easier is complete BS. You can safely mount your SIR without fear of it flying around in the drivers compartment. The Sir is not going to double your tire brake and bering budget in the first 3 races. Lastly the SIR will reduce your operrating costing by lowering usable rev rage of your motor...All the the additional sniveling is just that sniveling. Again I have made the real offer of half day of shop service and help with proper install on the first car to ask. Anybody else done anything other than bitch about this deal. Lets get it on and get to racing.

DJ I don't need to call a bimmer engine builder. I build all kinds of different engines. They all have something in common. The more air you give them the more power they can make. Take air away and the reverse happens.
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Joe,

I never said they floated the idea first, but someone on the ITAC (I forget if it was Andy, Jake, or Darin) said that they gave two options to the CRB, weight or the SIR. And I hope you didn't take my previous comments to mean that I was saying that 300# of lead was a 'piece of cake'. What I was saying was, that in light of dj's thoughts on implementing the SIR, lead will surely address all his concerns.
 
Kool, I think it has been stated several times that the ITAC wanted straight weight last year with no mention of a restrictor.. The CRB broke that ground on their own. SO if you were on the current would you not be looking into the best option for the competitors that the CRB would accept? I think these guys did the right thing getting in front of the CRB and not giving them the chance to screw it up twice. B)
 
Kool, I think it has been stated several times that the ITAC wanted straight weight last year with no mention of a restrictor.. The CRB broke that ground on their own. SO if you were on the current would you not be looking into the best option for the competitors that the CRB would accept? I think these guys did the right thing getting in front of the CRB and not giving them the chance to screw it up twice. B)
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That's just it Joe, they gave them more than one option. I'll have to dig back through the threads, but IIRC, one of the ITAC members said they recommended lead. We all know you're in favor of SIR technology, but stating that it is the 'best' solution for the competitors is just so much editorializing.

I guess we'll probably never know why they got the restrictor instead of lead last year. Would like to, but probably won't. There are a few rumors floating around, but that's all they are.
 
I think the SIR is fine and dandy if it works as billed, but make this thing go away by simply adding a SIR on the Mazda sized to its magical hp limit [/b]

My guess is that it would not make this argument go away but would insted just shift it to a disagreement on the size of the restricter.
 
My guess is that it would not make this argument go away but would insted just shift it to a disagreement on the size of the restricter.
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If my understanding of SIR technology is right the sizing should be pure math, the SIR should only limit max airflow (i.e. hp ) and have no effect otherwise. If the engineer wants a absoulte max of XXX hp then that should be a simple task,,,, the board sure sold it for the BMW guys that way. I also think that SCCA would do well to spot check at a few events this year by renting a chassis dyno and checking a few front runners.. I think the SIR thing can work but I do feel that it is somewhat unfair to saddle one car with a absolute hp ceiling without regard for ultimate level of development and not do the same for the others. I look at the SIR much the same as I do weight in that it is set number, all cars have a set weight and if some have a set hp then all should... It would also greatly reduce the cost of SIR's

My .02
 
I have a somewhat novel solution - only in the fact that with all the bitching and whining and finger-pointing and paranoia it hasn't been suggested . . .

How about an either / or option for the E36? SIR and 2850#, or no SIR and 3150#. Put it in the "Notes" like the factory aero package on the MR2's, and let the driver choose. It would even give 'em the option of swapping back and forth depending on the track and their pocketbook (and cash will always win over no cash).


While you're at it - and I realize it's on-topic, but this seems to have turned into a "my BMW got robbed" thread . . .

According to the ITAC modeling formula, a well prepped ITA MR2 should be plunking down ~122 RWHP. I'll make somebody a cash proposal. I'll pay you $5000 for that motor, if you can do it, legally, reliably, and repeatably, on an accurate dyno. I've got WAY more than that invested in my drivetrain, built by one of the best on the Continent - and I'm nowhere near that, nor is anyone else I know of.
 
According to the ITAC modeling formula, a well prepped ITA MR2 should be plunking down ~122 RWHP. I'll make somebody a cash proposal. I'll pay you $5000 for that motor, if you can do it, legally, reliably, and repeatably, on an accurate dyno. I've got WAY more than that invested in my drivetrain, built by one of the best on the Continent - and I'm nowhere near that, nor is anyone else I know of.
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My guess is that most of the BMW guys are nowhere near the boards 240 plus hp either......... that is my point (and I am not bitching and whining as I dont own a BMW race car anymore ) "model or process or whatever the hp/weight the board wants they SIR each car to its ceiling hp for given weight and BAM everybody has hp/weight ratio and then chassis and driver will make a bigger impact...
 
My guess is that most of the BMW guys are nowhere near the boards 240 plus hp either......... that is my point[/b]
But it isn't a valid point. IT classing is based on IT legal potential, not on what competitors choose to field or not. Though the repetitive fielding of levels of performance can definitely cause the revisiting of what potential had been assumed in classing.

For there to be a valid argument here, the argument would have to be that the potential does not exist to build an IT legal motor in excess of the HP targetted in this decision.

The questions to be asked and that can be validly argued in this decision are far more limited than people are willing to acknowledge:

Is classing based on potential?

Are potentials fairly determined?

Are potentials fairly balanced?

What means are available to balance potential?

Which means are preferred to balance potential?

If a nonpreferred means to balance potential is to be used what are justifiable reasons for doing so?

On an assumption that the first three are yes (which can be argued but I assume that the decision started with a yes to those questions) - the answers to the last three that guided the decision to add an SIR to the E36 and not other cars can be as follows:

Weight and power.

Weight.

Power is grudgingly used to balance potential when the weight necessary to adjust potential is unreasonable. (And RPs were determined both to be ineffective and to the detriment of areas not desired to be affected.)

No decision was made that the ITAC or CRB has any desire to get into the regular practice of balancing potential through power - they viewed it as a choice of necessity. I can't find it now but somewhere, someone with inside knowledge of the decision communicated that this decision was not one that would have been desired were it not that the E36 in ITS is an anomoly.

With the process as has been communicated the only valid way to add an SIR to another car would be to establish that it has a potential above its assigned weight and that adding weight to balance it would be unreasonable. What other car has the potential to generate in IT legal form HP in excess of its assigned weight and to add weight to it in response would not be reasonable? Lacking those conditions it has been communicated that overall SIRs are not viewed as desirable in IT - but rather a matter of necessity in addressing an IT anomoly.

IMO there has to be people who regret this car was ever classed in IT at all. It has been shown that its legal potential is beyond ITS intended ranges.
 
Ed,

One of the problems I see w/ your theory, is how do you define 'unreasonable'? Given the curb weight of an E36 325is, I don't believe 3150# is 'unreasonable'. Is it because it would require 300# of lead? If so, that's a convenient little catch-22. The car got spec'd at a weight that was way too light, but now you can't add the weight to get it to where it should be, because it's 'unreasonable'.
 
Certainly whether or not the necessary weight is "reasonable" is an area wide open to argument, err discussion. In making a decision where weight was the preferred answer presented and that SIR was selected, I assume that the decision makers made a determination that it was beyond reasonable. But still could be argued that they were wrong. Don't know that it would help though.

I am not sure that the theory expressed (which is definitely an uninformed opinion) becomes invalidated by having points of subjectivity that are arguable.

We certainly are left without an ability to repeat decisions when something as subjective as reasonable is involved. A group made of different members could validly have a completely different view of reasonable - unless someone wants to give us some quantifications but I couldn't deduce a bright line test for reasonable in this instance.

As communicated I presume they felt the weight was unreasonable - a differing view can certainly be reasonably held. Though I haven't heard anyone with an E36 say that adding the weight was reasonable and what they should have done instead.

What I see as underlying most arguments if I try to dig for them is a desire not to be classified at potential but rather classified as that individual brings their car to the track in essence many of those in opposition are saying "I don't make over X HP, so ignore the potential and leave me alone." or alternatively "Stop picking on me and put a nonpreferred solution on everybody whether it is needed for balance potential or not."
 
I assume that the decision makers made a determination that it was beyond reasonable. [/b]

Certainly possible, but I'd like to know what criteria it was based on.


I'd like to submit a hypothetical situation. This is directed to the folks on the ITAC.

If a request to classify the '95 Puddlebee GTR was submitted, with the following specs, where would it fall, and what would the spec weight be?

2.5 liter I-6 DOHC EFI VVT
189 hp / 180 lb-ft
10.5:1, IRS, close-ratio 5-spd, 4-wheel disc (287mmF/280mmR)
 
I hope the puddlebee gets a classified weight...it will be interesting to see what the scca machine thinks its ideal weight is. we cant put a manufacturer name on it...that would be prejudice...lets say it is a toyonda...toyotas are historically way too heavy for IT and the hondas are looked upon as overdogs. evens it out
 
Certainly possible, but I'd like to know what criteria it was based on.
I'd like to submit a hypothetical situation. This is directed to the folks on the ITAC.

If a request to classify the '95 Puddlebee GTR was submitted, with the following specs, where would it fall, and what would the spec weight be?

2.5 liter I-6 DOHC EFI VVT
189 hp / 180 lb-ft
10.5:1, IRS, close-ratio 5-spd, 4-wheel disc (287mmF/280mmR)
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RWD or FWD? Design of the suspension - Double wishbone or Struts?
 
RWD or FWD? Design of the suspension - Double wishbone or Struts?
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The interesting thing about the Toyonda Puddlebee GTR is that 1995 was a transitional year. They made two versions of the car with the same engine - one FWD with struts (it was a packaging nightmare), and one RWD with a wishbone front suspension. We'll need to list both.

There was also the GTR4, that was AWD but that isn't eligible for IT.

K
 
Dang, seems like to me for anything with those specs to race in ITS it'd have to weight about 3175 lbs or so. Hmmm......
 
The interesting thing about the Toyonda Puddlebee GTR is that 1995 was a transitional year. They made two versions of the car with the same engine - one FWD with struts (it was a packaging nightmare), and one RWD with a wishbone front suspension. We'll need to list both.

There was also the GTR4, that was AWD but that isn't eligible for IT.

K
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Get your own damn car!!!! :P B) :023:
 
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