April SIR ruling

I'm not real crazy about the either/or option[/b]
Bill --

Could you elaborate on this a bit? Are you concerned that it's creating a situation that's unique to the E36? If so, I'd completely agree with you -- but no more than having an SIR spec'd created a unique situation. I like the idea that there exists a way for the shoestring guy to run without big expenditure. The SIR might be a gift to the BMW community afterall, but the implementation headaches and unknowns certainly aren't.

tom
 
Harry,

You have to pay attention to the posts. You attribute that quote to Steve and it was actually Earl. Steve has a hard time with the quote function :)

The flaw Eal talked about was the implementation of the SIR, not the weight setting 'process' we have been using for a couple years which has proven solid.

Frankly, the BMW is the ONLY car that hasn't gone through this process.

How many times do we have to admit the SIR decision and implementation turned out to be a train wreck? The CRB is doing it's best to fix it. While I may not want SIR's in IT, I do want what is best for IT and I hope this works out.

I think 'leader' is a strong word for a guy who is 1 of 9 on a committee that advises a committee of 7 that reports to a Board of what - 7? Plllease. Should anyone who has a car or has a freind who has an car in ITS not be part of the DEBATE? Give us a break. All the BMW guys I have talked to over the last couple years fully understand what is going on, like it or not at least they understand.
 
Andy is right--I suck with the quote function--so I just cut and paste when I don't want the whole mess. :P We are where we are today because a misclassification was allowed to remain in place for so long. I can assure Harry and the rest that Andy is not even close to the reason this is being pushed. I think poor Phil Clark left to keep from receiving one more phone call. The car was not such an obvious overdog until some of the other changes allowed in IT helped it a little more than most (Insert Motec, Vanos tinkering, creative factory cams) and it fell into the hands of those that had the time and resources to develope it to the fullest. On paper, on track, and any formula you want to use it is a great car and is head above anything else in the class. People built them in good faith to the rules in place at the time and got the wins to prove it. Now we are doing real changes to IT to level the classes as has never been done in the past and the mistakes of past boards are very evident. Was it lack of caring or knowledge--who knows --but we are here now and it is time to fix it. New territory but it is better to be a part of the fix and work for the best outcome rather than get irate that anything is being done. It did go on way too long for whatever reason and the BMW drivers have a right to feel picked on--now work for a solution and give it a try before you go AWAL.
 
First, Bill Miller, I also wish "New Guy" would be outed. But I seriously doubt it will happen, sadly.

Second, Steve, I actually agree with your ponts above. I do not think anyone created a conspiracy to benefit an individual. The PROCESS is flawed from start to finish, as you said so well. And one of the things that has contributed to the process sucking so badly is the creation & continued enhancement of an appearance of conflicts of interes by Andy's involvement. Unfortunately, appearances easily become reality...and just saying "all my friends like me & say I am honest" does not cut it as a response. Andy should have recused himself long ago. As another person put it over on BF a while back, it is incumbent on LEADERS to do whatever they can to avoid even a WHIFF of an appearance of impropriety. To help improve the process, a leader like Andy should have known better, especially after the first goat rodeo with the 27mm ruling.

Bu, again, I agree with you: the PROCESS is the flaw, not some individual plot.
[/b]


HB,

The fact that NG hasn't been outed speaks volumes. I've got an idea who it is, but it's only an idea, and I'm not going to risk slandering someone that I'm not sure about.

You really need to get past this conflict thing w/ Andy. It's become an obsession w/ you. And it's not a case of "all my friends like me & say I am honest". It's a case of his colleagues saying that there's no conflict of interest. That's a significant difference. Add to that that you've had a CRB member state it as well. If that's not good enough for you, then you've got bigger issues w/ different people.
 
First, Bill Miller, I also wish "New Guy" would be outed. But I seriously doubt it will happen, sadly.

...and just saying "all my friends like me & say I am honest" does not cut it as a response. Andy should have recused himself long ago. As another person put it over on BF a while back, .......[/b]


I looked for the NG post and couldn't find it..either I missed it, or how do we know he hasn't been booted?
Maybe the webmaster gave him a 90% warning so that he could apologise, which would be in order.

Further, it is ironic to me (a favorite word of an active poster) that the cries of foul are aimed at Andy, who's major error in this entire debacle, has been his attemp to explain and make the actions as transpearent as he can.

The irony is that I actualy know more about what really happened, and can see that without Andy's actions, things that are now being complained about could have been worse!

The simple fact of the matter is that he is an advisor. His biases and interests ae known. The voting bodies are the actual creators of direction. They listen to 9 opinions, and they make their decision. Then 7 more guys listen to the CRBs case, and then THEY vote. Again, it is ironic, that in this ONE case, they (the CRB) decided to go in a direction that was different than what the ITAC wanted, yet Andy gets the blame. Too funny. Well, not funny, it's sad actually.

It is disturbing that accusations are made..... certainly DD 's comments were so far out of line as to enrage other non involved persons....when the structure and the organization of the boards has previously been shown to account for, and mitigate any one persons self serving interests. The 'appearance' arguement holds no water once you understand the actual structure.


HB, what is your screen name over on BF?
 
I applaud Andy for being so active and helpful on this message board. He does not have to say anything to us but he chooses to try and be helpful and explain it as best as possible. There are many on here that cannot comprehend this and start bashing people with fake names (cowards). If you have an opinion this is the place to state it for debate, but c'mon have the b@!!$ to give your name!! NG is the type to take you out in the corner and say it was someone else and throw 500 excuses as to why you were driving so bad to cause the crash!! I call it the condo commando attitude. Nosy in everyones business but not willing to help...just make demands and act bossy.
 
<beavis> Heh, heh - he said "BF" Heh, heh... </beavis>

... Further, it is ironic to me (a favorite word of an active poster) that the cries of foul are aimed at Andy, who's major error in this entire debacle, has been his attemp to explain and make the actions as transpearent as he can. ...[/b]

An excellent point. I don't hear anyone bashing on individual ITAC members not active in this forum.

K
 
I know when I see Andy at NHIS this spring I will personnally give him a slap upside the head!!

WHY?

Because he is a nice guy to a fault.....I absolutely applaud his patience and dedication to this and MANY other subjects. He has been FORTHRIGHT and ADMITTED that things were flawed. It takes a big man to do this.

They are ADVISORS not rule makers!! DUH!!

Great points by Kirk, no "silent" ITAC members have taken the lambasting that these guys that are our friends have. Very shameful how we behave.

I'm dumber for having lurked on this topic.

I'm sorry to AB, JG, DJ and any other ITAC friends who've been beat up on this thread.

Andy, your slap is coming!!

R
 
Well, this topic has run it's self dead. Thanks to all who support the groups trying to fix this mistake. The CRB will do there best to be fair to all. Having said that, you can never please everyone. Here is a post from BF.com from today. This person has been active in this discussion on this site and has seen all our responses.

I got some good information from a person on the Solo II board about this whole situation.

He stated that the SCCA main board is concerned about road racers leaving the SCCA and that it is a hot topic right now.

I have stated before that I am leaving the SCCA for other sanctioning bodies and I would ask the ITS BMW racers to consider the same. He stated that us leaving and stating as such to our regional executive would have a much greater effect than letter writing, fighting with the ITAC/CRB etc.

The CRB and ITAC and the board has made its decision that cannot be supported by facts and don't seem to care that they can't. They are just trying to find any reason to support their unsupportable decision. The decision to make the E36 BMW's uncompetitive was made, then they tried to find any reason to support it.

Any letter writing, etc. now will go on deaf years since they don't care that they can't support their decision. The decision was not made rationally, therefore, it won't be undone by rational argument. We already won the argument.

If you look at it another way, if we all leave, then they don't have anyone to beat up on. The purpose of screwing us was to have us stay around and become easy pickings for them and blame us for being slow and getting beat, when it was actually the SIR that did it.

They want us to stay around to just beat up on us. By racing them handicapped, we are doing exactly what they want. If they can't beat up on us now, what fun would it be for them to race each other?

I am not saying you SHOULD not run with the SCCA. I am asking you to reconsider and consider the points I made.

I would encourage all of you to consider NASA as I found them very accomidating in Texas and actually seem to want us to race with them. What a concept?[/b]

I fear we can never do a good job explaining the overall intent...and for that I feel like I have personally failed.
 
Jake, you already have my real name, my photo, and my occupation. I don't think knowing my user name on BF is either relevant to this discussion (hell, neither was my name or face or occupation...the search for them speaks volumes about those doing the searching) or any of your damned business. Way to keep focusing on the irrelevant.

Bill, you may be right, or maybe not. All I can say is that, from the beginning, Andy's posture on this issue has been very...unusual. His involvement, given his RX-7 business, created a cloud, and he has only accentuated it. His repeated promises/I-am-the-victim defenses/backpedals/denials/etc have only furthered this view in the minds of a large portion of the BMW community. I wish that it weren't true, since I no more want to make this issue about one person than you do. If you believe I am wrong, so be it. The larger BMW community smells something funny--not malicious, IMO, just funny--and as one mere messenger of this broad opinion, I have received little beyond being shat upon, here and elsewhere. this tells me a lot, frankly, and furthers the POV that this whole thing should be deep-sixed & RESTARTED, with a fresh clean sheet of paper, to be 100% above board in all possible ways.

Steve, my apologies--we all sometimes suck at the interweb thingies!
 
Andy, who was the author?? Or what post # was that??? (As you stated that this poster also posts on here, I will address my comments thusly)

The CRB and ITAC and the board has made its decision that cannot be supported by facts and don't seem to care that they can't. They are just trying to find any reason to support their unsupportable decision. The decision to make the E36 BMW's uncompetitive was made, then they tried to find any reason to support it.

Any letter writing, etc. now will go on deaf years since they don't care that they can't support their decision. The decision was not made rationally, therefore, it won't be undone by rational argument. We already won the argument.

If you look at it another way, if we all leave, then they don't have anyone to beat up on. The purpose of screwing us was to have us stay around and become easy pickings for them and blame us for being slow and getting beat, when it was actually the SIR that did it.

They want us to stay around to just beat up on us. By racing them handicapped, we are doing exactly what they want. If they can't beat up on us now, what fun would it be for them to race each other?

I am not saying you SHOULD not run with the SCCA. I am asking you to reconsider and consider the points I made.

I would encourage all of you to consider NASA as I found them very accomidating in Texas and actually seem to want us to race with them. What a concept?[/b]

I can tell you that when I read drivel like that I am infuriated!

If I wanted to make them 'also rans', as the writer states we do, would I have spent hundreds of MY dollars and spent days of MY life on this SIR thing??? of course not! I would have stayed home and bought an X box and video game and practieced for Road Atlanta...or something that would benefit ME! No, I took part in this attempt to help ensure the fairest outcome for all. I tied to HELP...for the FAIREST...for ALL...nothing's perfect in this world boys, but to state that this is an attempt to single one group out and treat them UN fairly REALLY pisses me off!

Andy doesn't race in ITS, and his (part time) firm doesn't either. I race in ITA....I have no reason to desire to squash anyone in ITS. If you do due diligence, which is what a RESPONSIBLE PERSON would do before posting such paranoid drivel, you would look into the facts, and the facts are SO far from this posters foil cap world its silly.

The FACTs show that any one persons input on any board is nuetered. The FACTs show that a car that puts 205 to 210 hp down with huge torque, great trans ratios doesn't fit the process. Those are FACTS.
And the statement that the decision can't be supported by facts is a complete falsehood. How can anyone state that when we haven't SEEN all the results of the tests????

I'm on the ITAC, and I don't know the all data that the CRB has!

There is NO proof that this 29mm SIR is the wrong size, that the top prep cars won't be able to make process power.
If there is POST it, or your claims otherwise are complete and utter hogwash, and insulting to rational people. In other words, put up or shut up.

We already won the argument.[/b]

Nice. How has this become Us against Them????

I'm sorry, but what a bunch of self entitled internet circle jerking.
 
Bill, you may be right, or maybe not. All I can say is that, from the beginning, Andy's posture on this issue has been very...unusual. His involvement, given his RX-7 business, created a cloud, and he has only accentuated it. His repeated promises/I-am-the-victim defenses/backpedals/denials/etc have only furthered this view in the minds of a large portion of the BMW community. I wish that it weren't true, since I no more want to make this issue about one person than you do. If you believe I am wrong, so be it. The larger BMW community smells something funny--not malicious, IMO, just funny--and as one mere messenger of this broad opinion, I have received little beyond being shat upon, here and elsewhere. this tells me a lot, frankly, and furthers the POV that this whole thing should be deep-sixed & RESTARTED, with a fresh clean sheet of paper, to be 100% above board in all possible ways.
Steve, my apologies--we all sometimes suck at the interweb thingies! [/b]

To Dave Harry Balzac:
As you know I'm a E36 owner, you say you smell something fishy with Andy. I seen your picture, not that I wanted to but I'm glad I did. It showed me that you are young and that we should understand you for being young and impetuous. You have never commented on how you are going to be hurt by this SIR rule. You also don't understand that even I don't agree with AB sometimes he is only one voice of many. I don't give a shit if he would own a Mazda dealership if he would try and made ill rational rules he would be voted down and if he did this continuous basis he probably be asked to leave the ITAC. Dave, I'm not very happy because I'm going to have to spend a lot of money to set up my car with this SIR. Again, either I deal with it and run SCCA or I go elswhere. The choise is mine and yours to make. Stop attacking people, be a man and make your decision.
Good luck what ever you decide.
dj
 
Can some one post a link to the forum on bimmerforums where this stuff is being posted? I can't seem to find it for some reason.
 
And another thing;

HB if you want to be taken seriously clean up your image.

HB (as a screen name) is very disrespectful to our female members and my folks who also visit this site. This is a public forum. I for one personally find it offensive! Racing and family go hand in hand.

You points may get you further if you came from an angle of integrity.....which all starts with a name IMO.

Sorry, I just had to say it.

R
 
The above post was actually the first of two, here's the followup. It's on the last page of the above link.

I guess truth hurts and it is funny how he is so worked up over this. The fact that he cares so much about what I post pretty much proves my points are true.



Trying to shame us into staying to be slaughtered is humorous. They have been doing the 6th grade playground taunting of "you guys are scared and just taking you (sic) ball and going home" LOL What really happened is that they were not as good at the game, so they chose to kick us in the nuts, rather than becoming better players and developing their equipment. Kicking us in the nuts is easier than fixing their own shortcomings.

Like I said over there, when I get kicked in the nuts on the playground, there is no point in staying so the same people can keep kicking me in the nuts. And the referee(the CRB and the SCCA board) allows them to keep kicking us in the nuts, when they should be calling a personal foul. LOL

........
My point is that if we are not around so they can keep kicking us in the nuts, they will have to find someone new or kick each other in the nuts.

I am not running away. I chose to not let someone keep screwing me and let some 6th grade level taunting affect my decision.[/b]

This from above:
What really happened is that they were not as good at the game, so they chose to kick us in the nuts, rather than becoming better players and developing their equipment. Kicking us in the nuts is easier than fixing their own shortcomings. [/b]

yessiree...THAT's what REALLY happened! What can you say to a statement like that?
 
To Dave Harry Balzac:
As you know I'm a E36 owner, you say you smell something fishy with Andy. I seen your picture, not that I wanted to but I'm glad I did. It showed me that you are young and that we should understand you for being young and impetuous. You have never commented on how you are going to be hurt by this SIR rule. You also don't understand that even I don't agree with AB sometimes he is only one voice of many. I don't give a shit if he would own a Mazda dealership if he would try and made ill rational rules he would be voted down and if he did this continuous basis he probably be asked to leave the ITAC. Dave, I'm not very happy because I'm going to have to spend a lot of money to set up my car with this SIR. Again, either I deal with it and run SCCA or I go elswhere. The choise is mine and yours to make. Stop attacking people, be a man and make your decision.
Good luck what ever you decide.
dj
[/b]


DJ, thank you for the compliment about being young. I am in my 40's, and am heartened by that! True, I havent commented on being hurt by this because this is not about me. It is about what is right. I realize that is often subjective, and thus we are all able to express our opinions here and elsewhere.

Doc, I appreciate your position, but the name stays. Frankly, I dont care whether you take me seriously or not. No disrespect intended by saying that, but you either see my views as credible or not, and my user name is irrelevant. If it offends you, please do not read my posts.

On the larger point, I am frankly AMAZED at the immaturity of folks who are STILL preoccupied with who I am on what board, who Mike is on what board, what my real name is, etc.

As I have already stated, way to focus on the irrelevant, folks, while smokescreening the relevant. lol
 
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