Attn: First gen guys...
- Thread starter lateapex911
- Start date
I sent my e-mail to the CRB last night. You may not agree with my logic, but I made my opinion known.
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With recent changes to car classifications moving more cars from IT-S to IT-A, there remains one glaring issue that the Club Racing Board should correct. The classification of the first generation Mazda RX7 (12A power). This car was for years the mainstay of IT-A, but the inclusion of cars with either more horsepower, lighter weight, (or both) as well as electronic fuel injection has long ago relegated this car to “also ran” status. This is evidenced by the numbers of regions that adopted some form of (often restricted) RX7 class, such as IT7, Pro-7, or Spec RX7. There are still lots of these cars being raced, just outside the IT class structure. And often, outside SCCA.
One solution would be to allow modifications to the RX7 to increase its competitiveness in IT-A. But that is probably not a realistic option. The alternative would be re-classifying the RX7 to IT-B, along with other cars that were recently moved from IT-A to IT-B. The RX7, with a weight increase of 100 pounds to the current weight, and the retention of the current 7” wide wheel will prove to be better suited to the IT-B class. Why retain the 7” wheels? The RX7, as you may be aware, has a unique wheel bolt pattern, used on only a few cars. Wheels of any type are often hard to find. Many racers have significant sums of money already invested in their wheel inventory. Obsolescing that investment by requiring the use of 6” wide wheels would defeat the purpose of moving the car to IT-B, which is to provide a stable class inside the IT structure for these cars and racers.
I urge you to take action to move the first generation RX7 with the 12A engine to IT-B as soon as possible.
Sincerely
Paul Gipson
AZ Region
Member # 131424
Spec RX7 class
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With recent changes to car classifications moving more cars from IT-S to IT-A, there remains one glaring issue that the Club Racing Board should correct. The classification of the first generation Mazda RX7 (12A power). This car was for years the mainstay of IT-A, but the inclusion of cars with either more horsepower, lighter weight, (or both) as well as electronic fuel injection has long ago relegated this car to “also ran” status. This is evidenced by the numbers of regions that adopted some form of (often restricted) RX7 class, such as IT7, Pro-7, or Spec RX7. There are still lots of these cars being raced, just outside the IT class structure. And often, outside SCCA.
One solution would be to allow modifications to the RX7 to increase its competitiveness in IT-A. But that is probably not a realistic option. The alternative would be re-classifying the RX7 to IT-B, along with other cars that were recently moved from IT-A to IT-B. The RX7, with a weight increase of 100 pounds to the current weight, and the retention of the current 7” wide wheel will prove to be better suited to the IT-B class. Why retain the 7” wheels? The RX7, as you may be aware, has a unique wheel bolt pattern, used on only a few cars. Wheels of any type are often hard to find. Many racers have significant sums of money already invested in their wheel inventory. Obsolescing that investment by requiring the use of 6” wide wheels would defeat the purpose of moving the car to IT-B, which is to provide a stable class inside the IT structure for these cars and racers.
I urge you to take action to move the first generation RX7 with the 12A engine to IT-B as soon as possible.
Sincerely
Paul Gipson
AZ Region
Member # 131424
Spec RX7 class
Banzai240
New member
Not sure what difference it makes in this conversation, but it's Fuel-Injected... For what it's worth, my RX-3SP ran a carb, First a "tricked-out" Nikki, then a 48IDA when I put in the "real" motor...
Since I race in ITS with the 240SX, I don't see the relevence of this question in this conversation...
As I've told people before, rather than beating around the bush, just say what's on your mind. If you have something to say or some accusation to make, sack up and spit it out...
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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited October 21, 2004).]
Banzai240
New member
Jake,
That's all I'm trying to do as well...
We have these same conversations on our ITAC group site as well, and we are going through this same, exact, back-and-forth bantering... Believe it or not, our committee members actually do go out and talk with racers at the track, and these they report back what they hear. Many are involved with bigger racing operations, some with car prep shops, etc... Heck, one of the members RACES and ITA RX-7...
My point is, as it has been all along, that there are really mixed signals floating around with this one.
It's generally accepted that the cars are capable of 135+ whp (about 150hp at the flywheel) in full IT-prep... That's basically the value we use...
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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
tdw6974
Member
Darin, She above. Nothing subversive was meant by MY question about your car. I did not notice you ran in ITS. On occasion I had suggested that perhaps in IT classes a ITA-c for carb cars and ITA-FI for the injected cars might be an uncomplicated way to have more fun, I try to look at the results as how we did against the Carb equipped cars instead of the FI cars, with Ignition Fuel management systems and I think maybe even oversize pistons( Not sure about that one) rmember I'm just the truck driver( I do the entry paper work make sure the car and trailer get to and from the track) so maybe I'm out of line to even offer a comment. Of course I think it would be nice to slip a 13B in and still run in ITA
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Tom Weaver: Logistics & Technical Support Manager IE truck driver for 1980 RX-7 ITA #63
"Hemi Haulin' Rotary"
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Tom Weaver: Logistics & Technical Support Manager IE truck driver for 1980 RX-7 ITA #63
"Hemi Haulin' Rotary"
Banzai240
New member
No... Tom and all... I appologize for my above overreaction... I woke from a dead sleep just now (3:42AM...
Anyhow, while, in an ideal world, it would be nice to package everything up nice and neat like you mention... It just seems so unneccesary. There is no reason the cars can't co-exist, at least that's my opinion...
That being said, trying to determine how to mix and match them is where you run into issues...
Originally posted by tdw6974:
Of course I think it would be nice to slip a 13B in and still run in ITA
While this seems like an easy solution, it violates one basic ITCS rule... You can't "create" a model. Allowing a 13B in the '79-'83 RX-7 would be doing just that... You'd have to update EVERYTHING to '84-'85 standards... Not sure how difficult or easy that would be, but I believe it involves more than just the motor and a set of brakes...
Those with '84-'85 cars, however, would be able to immediately take advantage, but of course the 13B was FI and the 12A isn't so things like wiring, etc., could also be an issue...
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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited October 21, 2004).]
dickita15
New member
darin, seeing you do not want to answer jake's question for what I am sure are good reasons can you tell me at least regarding the above quote, is that there are people who say the rx7 is competitive or just that they think in could be in their mind if the work was done.
dick patullo
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Dick,
From my perspective, there are at least as many people who say the RX-7's are competitive as who think they are B cars in the current structure. Of those, 1/2 again drive them. It isn't conjecture, it seems to be opinion based on real results.
This is what confuses me. IMHO, the car should be in B with some weight and 6" wheels, BUT - I am just one opinion. Some smart and resonable people on the ITAC disagree.
So, when I form my opinion with the data that is coming in (slowly), I have to wonder about the cars that can run with ITA, OR think that the car is 'more than the sum of it's parts' like some. Typically, that statement is reserved for Honda's and BMW's due to superior suspension design and powerplants that wake up when built well. But how can that apply to the 1st gen RX-7 with a crazy rear suspension, live rear axle and efectively only bolt-on engine mods being legal?
So I begin to wonder about two things - the legality of the fast RX-7's and the depth of the ITA classes that they are compared too. Adding to that are a few of the fastest IT7 cars not running them at the ARRC. I know NOTHING but it DOES make me wonder.
I also find it interesting that the people who think they are competitive DON'T run them in ITA. Hmmm.
Bottom line? The feedback is SPLIT and the ITAC is SPLIT. How can a recommendation be made either way? Our findings can be presented to the CRB and they can take them for what they are worth.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com
[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited October 21, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited October 21, 2004).]
From my perspective, there are at least as many people who say the RX-7's are competitive as who think they are B cars in the current structure. Of those, 1/2 again drive them. It isn't conjecture, it seems to be opinion based on real results.
This is what confuses me. IMHO, the car should be in B with some weight and 6" wheels, BUT - I am just one opinion. Some smart and resonable people on the ITAC disagree.
So, when I form my opinion with the data that is coming in (slowly), I have to wonder about the cars that can run with ITA, OR think that the car is 'more than the sum of it's parts' like some. Typically, that statement is reserved for Honda's and BMW's due to superior suspension design and powerplants that wake up when built well. But how can that apply to the 1st gen RX-7 with a crazy rear suspension, live rear axle and efectively only bolt-on engine mods being legal?
So I begin to wonder about two things - the legality of the fast RX-7's and the depth of the ITA classes that they are compared too. Adding to that are a few of the fastest IT7 cars not running them at the ARRC. I know NOTHING but it DOES make me wonder.
I also find it interesting that the people who think they are competitive DON'T run them in ITA. Hmmm.
Bottom line? The feedback is SPLIT and the ITAC is SPLIT. How can a recommendation be made either way? Our findings can be presented to the CRB and they can take them for what they are worth.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com
[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited October 21, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited October 21, 2004).]
Banzai240
New member
As many of you might imagine, when people confide in "us" privately, we can't go around splashing their names or information all over the place, otherwise, they will no longer confide... As Andy said, these are credible sources, drivers, etc... Not just speculation... Heck, we've heard from drivers HERE who don't want the cars moved... Don't quite understand that, but it's happened none-the-less...
Andy summed it up perfectly, and I don't think there is anything I could add to what he said...
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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited October 21, 2004).]
***Heck, we've heard from drivers HERE who don't want the cars moved... Don't quite understand that, but it's happened none-the-less...***
Some of us understand that 75% plus of the people racing will never be first to see the checkered flag fall. If drivers raced only to be first to get the checkered flag the fields would be VERY SMALL. IMHJ
We still Have Fun
David
Some of us understand that 75% plus of the people racing will never be first to see the checkered flag fall. If drivers raced only to be first to get the checkered flag the fields would be VERY SMALL. IMHJ
We still Have Fun
David
Interesting thread, and even more interesting the conclusion it seems to be coming to. There are so many "intangibles" that must come into deccisions like this! From my limited perspective as a guy who passed through ITA, but continues to monitor it fairly closely is that if similar cars, with similar prep levels and drivers, are competing on the same track on the same day, the result is that the Rx-7 is no longer a front-line competitive ITA car. On tracks that favor the Mazda the gap may not be very big, but it is definitely there. Some would like to compare only top level programs to equate the competitive potential of a given model, but I think that gives a statistically misleading result. It stands to reason that larger samples are absolutely REQUIRED for any real conclusions to be drawn. Unless you believe that ALL Hondas are prepared 10% better than ALL Mazdas, then the larger the sample - the better the data (within certain guidlines of course!). If someone had access to data that contained lap times and finishing positions for every race that pitted a race prepared Honda against a race prepared Mazda on the same track at the same time then a "mean competitive potential" value could be obtained. The more data the better as it would tend to smooth out any anomalies caused by extraneous data caused by sandbagging, cheating, accidents, over or under-prepared cars, etc. I'm only using Honda and Mazda as examples here, by the way. It seems like car classification is based a bit too much on a few performance parameters that don't really tell the whole story. Do I have a better formula? Well, no. I'm sure it is a very difficult chore no matter how you slice it. I think the Mazda community (myself included) liked having a very affordable car that was capable of winning in ITA. I think the balance was tipped when some of the new ITA cars were put in the class, but it's kind of an evolutionary thing that's bound to happen. CARS JUST KEEP GETTING BETTER. The most important thing is to look what kind of move will put the most cars on the track in as competitive a situation as possible without bankrupting either the club or it's members. We don't want to scare away new OR old members do we? There are lots of organizations running Spec-7 or Pro-7 type classes and a competitive Rx-7 package in ITB could "re-collect" those cars into the SCCA fold. Even if it turns out to be a no-go, it's a good question to ask.
Banzai240
New member
Rick,
I'm not sure you are getting what he said... You are a prime example of what he's talking about...
Put in the form of a direct question... If your car is "competitive" in ITA... why are you running in IT7 instead??? Running IT-7 only proves that your Mazda is faster than the other Mazdas...
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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited October 21, 2004).]
Hotshoe
New member
Darin:
...I get the jest of the comment but, since we run with ITA and I outrun most if not all of them doesn't that prove a point!
...I've had some people think I was in ITS. (even though that is the class my car started in)
...I ran ITA for almost six seasons and chose to run IT7 for about the same reason a Miata driver chooses SM over ITA. Plus that is where my friends run.
...Running in ITA would only change one thing for me... The decal on the side of my car....The drivers race me just as hard now in ITA as they would if I was to change.
...I get the jest of the comment but, since we run with ITA and I outrun most if not all of them doesn't that prove a point!
...I've had some people think I was in ITS. (even though that is the class my car started in)
...I ran ITA for almost six seasons and chose to run IT7 for about the same reason a Miata driver chooses SM over ITA. Plus that is where my friends run.
...Running in ITA would only change one thing for me... The decal on the side of my car....The drivers race me just as hard now in ITA as they would if I was to change.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Rick,
I am not sure what you are challenging me too...an ITS RX-7 against your IT7? Huh?
Anyway, Darin is right. I am trying to figure out why guys run in IT7 when they (the top cars/drivers) say the car is competitive in ITA.
IT7 was created because they were not.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com
I am not sure what you are challenging me too...an ITS RX-7 against your IT7? Huh?
Anyway, Darin is right. I am trying to figure out why guys run in IT7 when they (the top cars/drivers) say the car is competitive in ITA.
IT7 was created because they were not.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com
dickita15
New member
Darin, i am not trying to get you to give up sources but I would like to know if you can tell me of any regions, tracks or divisions where rx7s are competitive against well preped ita cars.
my frustration is in trying to deal in facts it is easier if you know what you are trying to overcome.
dick
