Beat me, hurt me - I think I'll go run NASA PT

K

Knestis

Moderator
Seriously.

Actually reading the radio rule (thanks for that, Geo) has spun me completely off of my axis.

Someone needs to open Word and write a new rulebook for IT, with a clear statement of intentions and resolution of all of the inconsistent, silly stuff that's in that book. No more of this piddling around the edges crap, with words added or deleted. New. Say what's allowed in as few words as possible, do NOT list specific prohibitions against things, and don't elaborate with ill-considered extra words.

I absolutely hate that I'm actually beginning to sympathize with the "that's stupid, I just decided it meant..." crowd. It creates all kinds of headaches and contributes to the legality laziness of IT racers, tech folks, and stewards, that the simplest thing to do is just ignore the "stuff that doesn't matter." I adhere to the "broken windows" theory of sociology - that ignoring the breaking of little laws (like throwing rocks through windows of vacant buildings), creates an environment that encourages the breaking of bigger laws. And I think the same thing applies to us racers.

But damn, people. There's a lot of stupid stuff in that book, even if I try really hard to think critically and be legal. It's like being a parent - which I have studiously avoided - trying to be consistent, reasonable, and fair when there is NO way to avoid being a hypocrite, fibber, or jerk every once in a while.

K
 
Ok sir, step away from the rulebook. NOW.

Refocus, get you priorities right. Watch some in car. Remember why this is fun.

SCCA is the second largest bureaucracy in the free world.
 
Kirk,

If I knew that was going to shock you like this I wouldn't have said anything.

But you're right, that rule and a few others could use some cleaning up.
 
I agree w/ you, Kirk, on a general review and re-write of the GCR. Indeed, every time I speak to Bryan or Jeremy, Terry Ozment, or our Division stewards about "the rules" I suggest that we ask for volunteers to form a committee to start doing just that. It would be a long-term process for sure but we have plenty of lawyers and other qualified people in the Club to clean up what is now a cut and paste job that is full of inconsistencies and downright mysteries. Are ya'll aware that there are in fact 2 IT ECU rules? EFI cars can "alter or replace" the ECU while carbed ones can only alter it - was this intended?
 
Kirk - have you thoroughly read the NASA CCR and Enduro supplement ? There is enough 'silliness' there to send you screaming back to the warm, enveloping arms of the GCR.

(posters - please withold all the 'you just don't like NASA' posts...I have a license and race with THEM, too...but some of their rulebook is just odd.
 
Kirk - have you thoroughly read the NASA CCR and Enduro supplement ? There is enough 'silliness' there to send you screaming back to the warm, enveloping arms of the GCR.

(posters - please withold all the 'you just don't like NASA' posts...I have a license and race with THEM, too...but some of their rulebook is just odd.
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Uh John, I think Kirk was being a tad facetious. :birra:
 
Yeah, but ONLY a tad...

And John, you ain't seen nothing yet. Wait until the Pro Touring classes are integrated into the E(whatever) classes. There are already cases popping out where a Honda Challenge or other spec car gets put in E2, but when run through the PT "computer," ends up in a class that crosses over to E3. Or vice-versa.

Maybe I'm getting spoilt with all of the good stuff going on recently but it just seems a shame to cave in to "it could be worse" as defense of stuff that is just plain goofy.

K
 
I agree w/ you, Kirk, on a general review and re-write of the GCR. Indeed, every time I speak to Bryan or Jeremy, Terry Ozment, or our Division stewards about "the rules" I suggest that we ask for volunteers to form a committee to start doing just that. It would be a long-term process for sure but we have plenty of lawyers and other qualified people in the Club to clean up what is now a cut and paste job that is full of inconsistencies and downright mysteries. Are ya'll aware that there are in fact 2 IT ECU rules? EFI cars can "alter or replace" the ECU while carbed ones can only alter it - was this intended?
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Bill,

The idea does make a certain amount of sense but the reprecussions could be ugly. I doubt you could put together a complete set of logical rules that wouldn't make at LEAST 10 percent of current IT cars illegal for some trivial reason or another. Things like the spherical bushing rule, oversize piston rule, etc... are vague enough now that if you clairfy it someone will get caught out.

Still, maybe the best thing to do is put together a committee and have them work on a class philosophy. similar to IT but better suited to include more modern cars (higher hp, awd, turbo, etc). That philosophy should make it possible for most IT cars to be welcome into the new set of classes as well. Then start to work on the rulebook that accomdates the old and the new. In the end it would probably be the death of the current IT but would spawn a whole new class that would embrace a lot of the cars we currently argue about.

Oh wait, never mind I hear someone already did this and it ws called IT2 or comething like that. :D
 
Matt, perhaps the place to start is to form the committee to review proposed rule changes, clarifications, technical bulletins, etc. just to make sure the language actually implements what the intent is and does not set up some inconsistency elsewhere. How many times have things come out in Fastrack that engendered much debate on meaning and implication on other rules?

Like it or not, the fact is that lawyers deal every day w/ statutes, rules, contracts, etc. and are more likely to write a clear rule than the average layperson. The important thing is for the draftsmanship function to be objective and separate from the rulemaking function. I.e tell the comm. what you want to accomplish and it will write a rule that will do it while minimizing unintended consequences.
 
Either way - I would know if it was legal or not in my bracket. I didn't say it lacked the need to make choices but I don't recall ever having issues with clarity around legality! But then again I got bored with it after 1 season.
 
OK, let's see; SCCA about 55,000 members, NHRA about 400,000 members. SCCA about $250 entry fees, NHRA about $30 entry fees. Where is this going? There are other folks out there also having fun.

I like the curvy road stuff, so I am sticking around. We need to rethink our club and bring the costs back under control. Why do we continue to support SCCAPro?

If you haven't taken a good look at the new NASA rules, you should. Not a bad way to write them as they will include a lot of the young tuner types that have no interest in our 1970's rule book and petty squables.
 
NHRA about $30 entry fees.
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And a real chance for going for an actual pot and spectators. When I did it, I definitely didn't stress out over the cost of it - I could go for the night and it cost less than a date and there were girls there that weren't another driver's wife.
 
Ok - there has to be some place in club racing where I can build a race car to be competitively prepped and be able to look at every aspect of the car and know for sure whether it is legal or not!!! Oh yeah bracket racing down at the drag strip.
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The tow for You would really blow, but the Grand Bayou race series folk down at No Problem in LA use bracket racing. Ya don't even have to worry how many points a Yellow racing stripe gets you or if it is legal for your model and year of car (there, I poked fun at NASA and SCCA)
 
We need to rethink our club and bring the costs back under control. Why do we continue to support SCCAPro?[/b]
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I totally agree!!!!

“Improved Touring classes are intended to provide the membership with the opportunity to compete in low cost cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition.”

What is the definition of low cost for IT? Yes, you can run any car on the track as long as it meets the minimum safety requirements. Blah, blah, blah. It is too bad that IT is getting so expensive to be competitive. I say “getting” because there are more and more very high prepped ($$$$) cars are appearing in IT.

While I do not care for the PT rule set, NASA is at least attempting to provide a lower cost choice for people to race and be competitive. For that, I do commend the organization.
 
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