Beetle in ITC

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
The SCCA/NASA thing is very regional.

But while IT may be a regional class, it's nationally recognized and I can race at Texas World Speedway or Watkins Glen or Laguna Seca or Road Atlanta, etc., and still race in the same class with the same rules. Try to do that in NASA.

------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited July 30, 2004).]
 
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">You too Jake can GET BENT!</font>

Me, me! I'm next after Jake!

(crinkle, crinkle, crinkle...)

I like cats too. Let's exchange recipes.
 
Originally posted by Catch22:
The appeal of NASA seems to lie mostly within things like the Spec classes like the SeR thing and the Honda Challenge (which is by far NASA's most popular classes). Ironically enough these classes offered places for cars that were not at all classed (Hybrid Hondas, Integra Type R) or badly classed/weight Specd (SeR, Civic DX, Integra GSR, etc.) by the SCCA. Again, with emphasis added... NASAs most popular race classes are taking advantages of SCCAs mistakes and omissions.

But that is exactly my point. If NASA is primarily offering spec classes and one make classes, how can "fair" classing of cars even be brought up? Let's see NASA offer classes where there are over 300 cars classified in one category. Then we can compare. But don't compare spec classes to a category wtih over 300 different makes and models. Absolutely NOT the same.

From where I sit, NASA isn't doing any "fair" classing. They are just running a lot of spec and one make classes. Additionally, NASA doesn't really administer most of those classes. They are administered outside NASA and NASA just provides a place to run. I know the folks involved in SE-R Cup and 944 Cup and know this to be true. Their attitude is basically "bring us enough cars and we'll let you run your own class."


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by grjones1:
OK Jake, You spent a great number of bits and bites putting words in my mouth. If you can read that much into "accused," you are the one whose thoughts run in that direction. But to tell you the truth, I think you are twisting the dialogue to make a play for your own inclusion.

Then later....

Originally posted by grjones1:
You are guilty by association with Scott and your agreement with the board's decision.

Seems to speak for itself.
nuts.gif




------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
And Jake, remember that you are trying to reason with a man who has asserted publicly that the ITAC is a puppet of VW, ..., has insinuated that anyone that disagrees with his position is gutless, keeps referring back to the state of ITC in one series at one track as representative of his position that all is healthy, and hates me because I had the nerve to...
1. Disagree with him (How DARE I!!!) and
2. Call him out on all of his silly crap.
[/B]

*I have never said "all was healthy" or anything close.
*I retracted the VW thing.
*I suggested someone who was willing to stand up to the powers that be had some guts, that's a far cry from "anyone disagreeing with me was gutless."
*I made a few references to substantiate the validity of my car as representative of a competitive ITC car for comparison with the NB.
* And you have made no technical argument that disproves any of my statements other than the ITAC considers 180 lbs to be an average driver weight.
*You attacked me personally with some pretty strong language, you belittled my driving record (when your own is nothing to tout as superlative); you suggest that the people I race against are not up to IT drivers in the rest of the country (when your own record shows you habitually race against 6 or 7 cars in class, where I have not raced aginst less than 12 in class in the last 12 years); and you even go so far as to besmirch one of the favorite racing venues on the East Coast, (because you evidently can't handle surface changes.)

I dislike you Scott because in my opinion you are not honest and as far as I can see you are a poseur. I've detected little technical insight or comprehension from anything you have declared. And your declaration of your conception of a condition doesn't make it any more accurate than my own. Just like Jake, you distort my comments to make your argument. That's not honest, Jake, that's "crap."

I don't mind being proven wrong other than suffering the same embarrasment anyone else would. But you Scott and Jake and a few others aren't men enough to recognize a mistake when it slaps you in the face.

Darin,
I beleive you stated somewhere you use 25% as a standard for HP increase for IT prep. Using your figure (and I believe that's pretty conservative), the Fiesta would make
81 Hp (up from the 65 stock). I used the same 25% increase for the NB and came up with 144. That gives the Fiesta a 1 Hp to 22 P/W (1780/81) (originally I used the actual race weight of 1910 to come up with the 1:24 figure) and the NB with a 1 Hp to 18 lbs P/W. I really don't know exact Hp for the Fiesta, we've never dynoed it. But I don't think its unfair to use the same speculative percentage for both cars. (That appears to be how you came up with the race weight for the NB.)

A 4 lb. P/W advantage (not even considering other factors) in my opinion precludes consideration of the NB for ITC.

And regardless of some misrepresentation of my attitude (and I think I said this before) I appreciate your efforts.
GRJ

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 30, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 30, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by badal:

Andy, what is so bad about us having different opinions? I have read your posts-have you read mine? Don't take this as a personal attack. I'm asking legitimate questions. If you want to be on the ITAC, you need to expect that.

You have said in general terms:
The NB should be in ITC to add to car counts.
You wil move it if it is an overdog.
(feel free to correct me if I am wrong)

I said we don't need the car counts.
It will be hard to move the NB


Come on Al. We welcome healthy debate, but not stuff like this:

George-can you name the car? I bet it was before your time in IT.
And moving a car up would take 5 years.


I responded thusly:

ITB Accord to ITA.

If we thought the NB would upset the apple cart, we wouldn't have classed it there. ITC is our version of a 'vintage' class. Nothing has happened in there for years. We think this car freshen the choices while NOT upsetting the AC.

Seems simple. We have a difference of opinion. We debate things like E36's, car counts, you want MORE examples of what has been moved up...all failry reasonable until this gem:

There is a provision in the GCR that allows for the specifications to be changed within the first year of a classification or reclassification. That would be one method of handling this if it's an immediate problem...
That works only if the ITAC is willing to admit they made a mistake, and based on Andy's tone when I ask some simple questions semms unlikley.


This one got to me. What in my tone gave you this impression? We (Darin, Geo and myself) have stated many times that we would fix it if it was a mistake. I can't understand where you are coming from.

Let me just say this to try and end this all:

We weighed all the factors - pro and con. The current ITAC thinks this classification is a great thing for ITC - provided it doesn't prove to be an overdog. We don't think it will. If it does, I ASSURE you, it will get fixed. We understand how a change to this class will make some waves - but we think these waves will wash some more car counts your way without taking to much 'wood' out of your hands.

AB



------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
Originally posted by grjones1:
Darin,
I beleive you stated somewhere you use 25% as a standard for HP increase for IT prep. Using your figure (and I believe that's pretty conservative), the Fiesta would make
81 Hp (up from the 65 stock). I used the same 25% increase for the NB and came up with 144. That gives the Fiesta a 1 Hp to 22 P/W (1780/81) (originally I used the actual race weight of 1910 to come up with the 1:24 figure) and the NB with a 1 Hp to 18 lbs P/W. I really don't know exact Hp for the Fiesta, we've never dynoed it. But I don't think its unfair to use the same speculative percentage for both cars. (That appears to be how you came up with the race weight for the NB.)

We said we used 25% for the NB, but that doesn't mean that we use that figure for every car... Some engines respond better to IT prep than others. I don't know a thing about your Fiesta, but I do know a little about VW Rabbits, and quite a bit about Datsun 510s... The REAL numbers for the 510 show it to have about a 20% increase with IT prep... but it's a 1600cc engine that made 96hp stock in the first place... Nissan apparently got it right... VW, on the other hand, is a 1600cc engine that only makes 71hp stock... They apparently weren't quite a thorough on their stock configuration, they misrepresented the numbers, or perhaps their emmisions or ??? just make them stock dogs... However, they show, as Mr. Miller admits, at least a 30% increase over stock...

My guess is, that if your Fiesta is even remotely competitive today, it's making a heck of a lot more than 80 some-odd horsepower... Without REAL numbers, one can only guess...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
Does anyone know where I can find a moderator? Who is the moderator here anyway?

I remember I got a thread locked because someone got upset when I pointed out that wheel spacers are illegal unless needed to fit a tire on the car. Therefore also pointing out that most cars are illegally widening their track. That thread got cut off way before anything like this thread. Even our own SCCA comp board member has personal attacks posted on the web. We need to have this thread turned off before it does more damage to the SCCA IT community. The IT community is much better than this. Personal issues should be saved for E-mail and informative information posted here. This website is used by a ton of people and is posted everywhere on the web for people inquiring about IT racing. This is not what they or we want them to see.

Please someone find the moderator!

Stephen
[email protected]
 
I think I understood the get bent, crinkle, crinkle, remark, but what kind of cat recipes are you talking about? I have an over-active imagination and I lost my aluminum foil. I don't recall cats being allowed per the GCR.

Where's Rod Serling when you need him.

Tom
(Who's logging off to go rebuild a transmission and find some peace)
 
slow cooked barbecue cat. Best with an older feline for extra tenderness, but if you have to use a healthier male, you might consider a crock-pot or other slow cooker for about 6 hours before grilling to soften him up. Avoid anything you find by the road as the bone chips are a killer. cook on the grill over medium indirect heat until it reaches the desired doneness. baste often with red pepper vinegar. Serve with beer.

And the GCR makes no mention of cats being allowed since they're intended solely for enjoying after the racing is all done.

------------------
Richard Floyd
'86 Acura Integra LS #90
SCCA ITA / NASA ECHC H5
 
Darin,

Just so I understand what you said, and hopefully head off any future confusion, you stated that an IT-prep L16 is good for about a 20% increase. Given the 96hp stock value, that would put it at ~115hp in IT prep. Let's look at the Rabbit GTI. Assuming it can make that same 115hp in IT trim, that equates out to almost a 28% increase over stock.

For arguement's sake, let's say you can get 30% out of the VW, since it seems possible w/ the 1.6's (BTW, the stock figure is 75hp, not 71hp, for the FI 1.6). That would leave you w/ 117 hp for the Rabbit GTI in IT trim. So, here you have two cars, make similar power, at similar weights (2170# for the Datsun, and 2180# for the GTI). One has RWD, IRS, a 4spd, and a carb. The other one is FWD, beam axle, 5spd, and FI. Sure seems like a pretty decent match to me.

Here's a question for Al. I know it's not scientific, or anything like that, just looking for some information. And since he drives an ITC 510, and holds the ITC record at Summit Point, there's probably some relevance.

Al, can you recall the last time, if at all, an A1 GTI ever ran under your Summit Point record? I'll have to look it up, but I thought it was something on the order of a 1:32.8. I'll see if I can find the official number.

/edit/ What I saw in the WDCR website was from the April/01 MARRS race, a 1:32.654. I'll pull through the results, but I don't recall anyone ever running this fast, at Summit Point, in a Rabbit GTI.
------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[This message has been edited by Bill Miller (edited July 30, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by Banzai240:
We said we used 25% for the NB, but that doesn't mean that we use that figure for every car... Some engines respond better to IT prep than others. I don't know a thing about your Fiesta, but I do know a little about VW Rabbits, and quite a bit about Datsun 510s... The REAL numbers for the 510 show it to have about a 20% increase with IT prep... but it's a 1600cc engine that made 96hp stock in the first place... Nissan apparently got it right... VW, on the other hand, is a 1600cc engine that only makes 71hp stock... They apparently weren't quite a thorough on their stock configuration, they misrepresented the numbers, or perhaps their emmisions or ??? just make them stock dogs... However, they show, as Mr. Miller admits, at least a 30% increase over stock...

My guess is, that if your Fiesta is even remotely competitive today, it's making a heck of a lot more than 80 some-odd horsepower... Without REAL numbers, one can only guess...

Darin,
Even I am getting tired of going over the same old territory, but please bear with me.

I think you are correct: my Fiesta obviously is making more than 80 some horse power (especially since Quicksilver built my motor)and some hellacious torque in the mid range. But not within 40 Hp and whatever torque of what that 2.0 is going to make, and what apparently is much more important to everyone else neither are the other VWs, Datsuns, Hondas, etc. in C. But you are willing to "guess" only a 25% increase for the NB is justifiable. Even when you know the 1600s show a 30% increase!?! I'm sorry but I just don't see the logic.

And now you make my point, you are only guessing. I'm not being pejorative, I'm only trying to convince you that not only are we in the dark about Hp, if you consider the superior brakes, equal suspension (according to you guys), and above all the gearing that newie bug is showing (which no one for some reason wants to bring into the equation), what presently exists in C wont have a chance. (If I used the close ratio box available for the Fiesta, I guarantee I'd win more than two races a year.)

I said it before, bring on the new faces, but don't start with an unknown 2.0 in a 1.6 class, even with added weight. There are too many other variables that just don't make it equitable.

OK, I quit. I'm Cassandra at the walls of Troy: "Dont let that wooden horse behind the walls." You are going to do it anyway, as others in the past have done, and we all live to regret it.

Again, I appreciate your indulgence.
GRJ

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 30, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 30, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 31, 2004).]
 
Bill, Darin:

Something to take into consideration when looking at those numbers - the 96 bhp for the 510 was gross not net hp. By the time the FI VW A1 came out, mfgs were using (as they still do) net numbers which are considerably lower. The factor varied by engine, but I think was typically 10-15% different. So a 510 "really" had maybe 83 bhp net (???) by todays measuring standard. If they really make 115 bhp in IT trim that's a 39% increase.

Al Seim
www.actdigital.com
 
Originally posted by Geo:
Hey Greg, pass the Reynolds Wrap.
biggrin.gif


I would but it doesn't seem to work, even when folded double! I'm moving on to plate steel.

"And then, there was that time at band camp,..."

TGIF

Gregg
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Darin,
What I saw in the WDCR website was from the April/01 MARRS race, a 1:32.654. I'll pull through the results, but I don't recall anyone ever running this fast, at Summit Point, in a Rabbit GTI.

That's because Al doesn't brake like the rest of humanity. Not very often, but I've been close enough at times to his brake lights to know that for a fact.
Forgive me again, Al, for sticking my nose in.
GRJ
 
Originally posted by grjones1:
OK, I quit. I'm Cassandra at the walls of Troy: "Dont let that wooden horse behind the walls." You are going to do it anyway, as others in the past have done, and we all live to regret it.

GRJ

Except we have the power to stuff the NB back into the wooden horse and send it back outside the walls of ITC.

How many ways can we say it? We hear your issues. We believe the performance potential is in the same envelope, we could be wrong...we don't think so.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
Andy,

Serious question here, why is the ITAC so afraid of the Rabbit GTI in ITC, but not the NB (and the Golf/Jetta IV)?

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Bil,

What is the situation behind said GTI? What letters have been written? What requests have been addressed? Please provide a quick history so I don't duplicate efforts.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
Originally posted by Geo:
But while IT may be a regional class, it's nationally recognized and I can race at Texas World Speedway or Watkins Glen or Laguna Seca or Road Atlanta, etc., and still race in the same class with the same rules. Try to do that in NASA.

What I meant Geo was that the popularity of one versus the other varies by region.

To your point, if you have an ITS, A, B, or C car you are correct. What if you have an IT7, Spec7, ITE, SM, SF, or CF? You don't have the ability to race in the same class with the same rules anywhere within SCCA either.

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Daryl DeArman
 
Originally posted by grjones1:
But you are willing to "guess" only a 25% increase for the NB is justifiable. Even when you know the 1600s show a 30% increase!?! I'm sorry but I just don't see the logic.

There is very simple logic to this... Newer engines have less to gain because the factory is already optimizing their potential...

You guys said it before... new engines have tighter tolerences and are generally getting more from the same cc's...

OK, I'm gone for the rest of the weekend... I'll be at the track if anyone wants to stop by and say HI!



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
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