BMW E36 (ITS) Ring sizes?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Rob,

No forgiveness neccessary. While we should talk more at the track, I suspect you are on the up and up. And I have a feeling you feel the ITAC is too. We just need more info.

I guess for me, the fact you "know" the stcok EM can't be improved upon isn't good enough (No offense intended). Take my situation. In building the IT Miata, I have info from Sunbelt that the cars will make only about 7 more hp than in SM trim...WHAT??? The EM on the MIata is like a little header...so off-the-shelf stuff isn't much, if any, of an improvement. So I had to go to a Production builder who makes headers for GT and Prod cars for a custom unit that is the latest and greatest. Gonna cost me but it needs to be done.

I talked to that builder today and when I was describing all the things you can do in IT prep, he was dismissing them as 'only one or two hp here and there" - well guess what? When I run in ITA in NER, I am going to need that cumulative 10 hp to even SEE the MSN Integra's and BBRacing 240SX's. Here is what I would say:

Custom header
Shave head (gain .5 of compression)
Port manifolds
Valve job
Balance/Blueprint
Fuel pressure regulator (Have you done dyno development?)
Turner makes their own pully sets - have them make one for the 4cyl Z3...

I know this is exactly what you didn't want to hear but how are we all supposed to believe that none of this makes a difference until someone does it? Why wouldn't it? Someone just wrote in and asked us class teh Integra Type R in ITS. At 195hp stock it would seem it is outside the envelope but that is as close to an IT motor from the factory as I have seen...are you saying that this Z3 motor is as developed from BMW?

 

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 11 2005, 06:13 PM
Rob,

No forgiveness neccessary.  While we should talk more at the track, I suspect you are on the up and up.  And I have a feeling you feel the ITAC is too.  We just need more info.

I guess for me, the fact you "know" the stcok EM can't be improved upon isn't good enough (No offense intended).  Take my situation.  In building the IT Miata, I have info from Sunbelt that the cars will make only about 7 more hp than in SM trim...WHAT???  The EM on the MIata is like a little header...so off-the-shelf stuff isn't much, if any, of an improvement.  So I had to go to a Production builder who makes headers for GT and Prod cars for a custom unit that is the latest and greatest.  Gonna cost me but it needs to be done.

I talked to that builder today and when I was describing all the things you can do in IT prep, he was dismissing them as 'only one or two hp here and there" - well guess what?  When I run in ITA in NER, I am going to need that cumulative 10 hp to even SEE the MSN Integra's and BBRacing 240SX's.  Here is what I would say:

Custom header
Shave head (gain .5 of compression)
Port manifolds
Valve job
Balance/Blueprint
Fuel pressure regulator (Have you done dyno development?)
Turner makes their own pully sets - have them make one for the 4cyl Z3...

I know this is exactly what you didn't want to hear but how are we all supposed to believe that none of this makes a difference until someone does it?  Why wouldn't it?  Someone just wrote in and asked us class teh Integra Type R in ITS.  At 195hp stock it would seem it is outside the envelope but that is as close to an IT motor from the factory as I have seen...are you saying that this Z3 motor is as developed from BMW?

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Andy,
I always love a discussion with you because you tell it straight. I'm pretty confident that BMW developed that motor pretty extensively. Travis (Washay) did a head shave to bring it to factory CR when he owned the car. All I've done is exhaust (stock header), K&N filter, installed an electric fan, blueprinted and flowed the injectors, fixed an unmetered air leak, and new plugs and wires. I'm hoping to get a baseline dyno pull soon. I know there is more to development than bolting on parts. I guess some of the frustration lies in knowing that that is sorta all the Honda/Acura and Nissan guys may need to do though. They can follow a "recipe for success" so to speak. Even the e36 guys have this luxury. I'm concerned because of my current petition to the CRB about wheels. The book says 15", the door jam says 15" the part #'s say 15" but the burden of proof is on me to show BMW option packages so that I don't take the best of this with the best of that....etc. If I am having this much difficulty with something so simple and black and white as classing the car with the 15",16" as the e36 then where do I begin finding info for the CRB on the m44 motor???
Is Flatout interested in developing and marketing parts for the m44.....there's obviously a need and demand!!!

PS What's a fuel pressure regulator?!?!
Rob

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Nov 11 2005, 02:33 PM
Andy,
I always love a discussion with you because you tell it straight.

Thanks! Some BMW guys don't usually see it that way!

The book says 15", the door jam says 15" the part #'s say 15" but the burden of proof is on me to show BMW option packages so that I don't take the best of this with the best of that....etc.  If I am having this much difficulty with something so simple and black and white as classing the car with the 15",16" as the e36 then where do I begin finding info for the CRB on the m44 motor??? 

We are debating this one currently. We can't find any info that shows your car was available with 15" wheels from the factory as delivered to the US market. The info we see shows that 15" wheels for winter use were available...but we haven't determined if it was a dealer option or not. No window sticker or brochure to back up the 15" as part of a factory option package yet but we are still working on it. We want to allow it, but we need to be sure.

Is Flatout interested in developing and marketing parts for the m44.....there's obviously a need and demand!!! 

PS What's a fuel pressure regulator?!?!  
Rob

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AB

 

[robits325is]

The US Spec Z3 1.9 was only available with 16" wheels. 15" wheels were available in non-US markets.

 

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Nov 11 2005, 06:33 PM
I guess some of the frustration lies in knowing that that is sorta all the Honda/Acura and Nissan guys may need to do though.  They can follow a "recipe for success" so to speak. 

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Rob (Z3 Rob )

Please don't be fooled into thinking this... If there is a recipe... it's a recipe for SECOND place... I've seen what the top Nissan builders go through to get things just right, and it's far from a recipe... it's a lot of fine details and rubbing here and there that adds up to an overall package that is very good...

Not too many IT cars out there that can truely "bolt-on" and go to the front...

On Pistons... Weisco or any number of other manufactures will make you ANY piston you want, and DEVES or Total Seal, etc., will make you any ring you want, so essentially, it boils down to how much $$ you have... Just a "benefit" of getting to choose your own race car...

As for the Z3 wheels... The info that Rob (325i Rob) posted is what we are finding... Based on the current rules, the wheels would have had to have been delivered on the car and not an optional purchase item available from the dealer... Basically, 15" "winter tires/wheels" don't count... Sorry about that, but that's the way the rules work in this case...

 

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by robits325is@Nov 11 2005, 07:15 PM
The US Spec Z3 1.9 was only available with 16" wheels.  15" wheels were available in non-US markets.

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Can this be proven definitively? If so what is the source?
If it is a difinitive:
For sale:
4 15x7 Kosei K1
4 15x7 OZ racing wheels

Wanted:
Any 16x7 BMW lightweight aftermarket race wheel under $300 per wheel of comparable quality to the Kosei K1. Good Luck

Is this considered bolt on or do I need to work with a manufacturer and "develop" a wheel?

How many competitive cars (top 20 even) in ITA run factory wheels as their main race wheel? How many cars in ITA run wheels under 300 a pop?
As soon as you jump to the 16" diameter most widths go to 7.5 minimum.

I'll trade a comparably developed ITS 325is at 3100lbs for my ITA Z3 with spares package.....any takers????

Rob "sorry for the sarcasm but I'm feeling penalized by my car choice" Breault

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

A 30 second trip to Tirerack.com showed ASA AR1's in 16x7 for 169 each for the Z3 1.9.

AB

 

[Doc Bro]

Just searched Ebay (again). I can get all the "Alutec" 16x7 wheels I want for $439 for a set of 4. Hub centric ...I think not. How many guys want to put their 2675 lbs racecar on those. I'm sorry but my life is too important....and quite frankly I work too hard for my money to spend 3000 for 8 race wheels without tires. Bring the spec 16"diameter wheel to 7.5" width and you won't hear a complaint out of me. I can buy those, they don't need to be "developed". I don't think that I'm out of line here. If this is not entry level wheel to wheel road racing what is?
I feel that it takes a certain amount of courage to ask the tough questions and challenge the establishment. The Z3 is a newly classed car fitting into old rules. Sometimes evolution needs to ensue....note- evolution not rules creep. The parameters of change need to be explored....who out there is teaching their kids computer technology on a Commodore 64??
Here's one for you where technology has surpassed the rulebook. If we remove our wheel sensors per the rulebook the computer goes into limp mode. The car needs at least one wheel sensor RR to function. The rules don't alow for this (they also don't allow for a 16x7.5" wheel). We will be working on this change soon and I'm sure it will be approved because it's pretty straight forward.

Again, the burden of proof totally lies with me. I'm having trouble too, so that means the car didn't come with 15" wheels. That is definitive. Not very conclusive in my mind.
I'm sorry but I'm seriously thinking about selling my car and going to an ITS 325is (at 3100lbs) rather than "developing" it this offseason. At least I'll have the masses on my side. If I do stay with the Z3 I'll at least have the priveledge of "developing" wheels. Who knows maybe I can re-invent the wheel while I'm at it!!!!

Rob "still sarcastic about the whole thing" Breault

 

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 11 2005, 08:06 PM
A 30 second trip to Tirerack.com showed ASA AR1's in 16x7 for 169 each for the Z3 1.9.

AB

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Race wheels?? Last time I called about those they weren't even available...furthermore the salesman "WOULD NOT" recommend them in that application. No thanks.....

Then there's the Team Dynamics.....been waiting over a year for the 8 I ordered from (unnamed BMW retailer). I sure would hate to bend one at a race and need a replacement in a hurry....bye, bye season. I'm not casting stones only trying to shed light on the facts for everyone to see.
Very, very frustrating!!!

R

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Nov 11 2005, 04:16 PM
Race wheels?? Last time I called about those they weren't even available...furthermore  the salesman "WOULD NOT" recommend them in that application.  No thanks.....

Then there's the Team Dynamics.....been waiting over a year for the 8 I ordered from (unnamed BMW retailer).  I sure would hate to bend one at a race and need a replacement in a hurry....bye, bye season.  I'm not casting stones only trying to shed light on the facts for everyone to see.
Very, very frustrating!!!

R

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Some will tell you to run the 15's under the premise that you think they are legal...then it would take a protest to ding you...you have a stock Ring and Pinion? Who would protest?

I hear your frustration. Have you called Circle or Panasport?

Try here: http://www.circleracing.com/Merchant2/merc...ategory_Code=16

AB

 

[robits325is]

We have some 16x7 Forgeline Race wheels in stock. Very nice, very strong and less than $300 per wheel. Custom offset for E-36/E-46 cars. No hub centering rings or spacers required. Right here in Connecticut.

Rob

 

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 11 2005, 08:23 PM
you have a stock Ring and Pinion?  Who would protest?

AB

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Totally stock 3.44 LSD only ratio available for the car with a 5 spd.
R

 

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by robits325is@Nov 11 2005, 08:36 PM
We have some 16x7 Forgeline Race wheels in stock.  Very nice, very strong and less than $300 per wheel.  Custom offset for E-36/E-46 cars.  No hub centering rings or spacers required.  Right here in Connecticut.

Rob

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Can you send me some info on them- a model # perhaps. I'm hoping not 299.99

Rob, maybe we should talk about what can be done with this car for IT I know that you and Jeff have a decent amount of experience with them in SS trim. In fact I own Jeff's old motor as part of my spares package!!
Rob

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Nov 11 2005, 05:35 PM
Totally stock 3.44 LSD only ratio available for the car with a 5 spd.
R

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WOW. What are your options? I will be going from a stock 4.10 to a 4.88 on the Miata. Betting there is a lot to gain in lap times there...especially at NHIS...

AB

 

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 11 2005, 09:42 PM
WOW.  What are your options?  I will be going from a stock 4.10 to a 4.88 on the Miata.  Betting there is a lot to gain in lap times there...especially at NHIS...

AB

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Andy,
We can put other ratios in as long as they are from a small case diff. (non 325) put the availability isn't so great because of BMW Motorsport being uninterested in continuing to sell R&P's in the US anymore. I'm sure you've heard about that.

But to echo your post I keep asking myself "wow, what are my options"
The other problem is if you go too steep on the diff ratio you're going to be in 5th gear a lot... rev limiter is 6700. Reflashing the computer will bring it to about 7200. I'm curious I've never been to the Glen....me thinks it may favor the car as is. NHIS doesn't, LRP doesn't play to its strengths either (not enough braking zones). The car has great brakes no doubt about it. It's sorta a kamikaze ride to be constantly going for the outbreaking maneuver though, besides most people block that anyway...it's easy to see it coming. It also gets dangerous if it doesn't work!!

Rob

 

[Joe Harlan]

Just a quick note: There is no way that a stock exhaust header cannot be improved on. The OE stuff does not focus on performance other than to make a target sales number and control cockpit noise. An inline 6 with a proper 6 into 2 stepped header will make HP and torque, it just takes money.

PS....A 3:44 gear isn't even good for getting across town let alone racing a car.

 

[nlevine]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Nov 11 2005, 10:58 PM
Andy,
We can put other ratios in as long as they are from a small case diff. (non 325) put the availability isn't so great because of BMW Motorsport being uninterested in continuing to sell R&P's in the US anymore.  I'm sure you've heard about that.

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I put in a 3.64:1, custom spec'd and built (and I waited a while to get it, too). Everybody I talked to would build anything for the 6-cyl cars - took me a while to find the one guy who would even consider building someting for a 4-cyl BMW. After the advent of the 325i, the 4-cylinder BMWs have been largely overlooked in any performance guise.

I think that until more of us "trend setters" (I like that term better than "gluttons for punishment") start demanding the parts, the BMW aftermarket will remain happy churning out stuff for the M20, M50, and "S" motors - they're the ones perceived as the choices for motorsports. This is why I also read the "oddball" car forum - I can relate.

That said, I still would like a weight reduction, though.. 2675 is a tad excessive for the hampster-power we have, and a bit portly considering the competition (and adding back the stock seat with motors, the stereo amp, and speakers to make weight was fun, too).

Rob, we should chat off-line and come up with a winter development game plan - perhaps we could find sources who would build two of something, rather than just one.

-noam (the other Z3 in NER)

 

[Geo]

Originally posted by Banzai240@Nov 10 2005, 12:41 PM
Sounds like a trip to the tech shed could be VERY interesting for a BMW driver who is under protest for such things... 

Unfortunatly, I'm not sure that aftermarket suppliers, or BMW Motorsports division, etc., can be used as definitive confirmation of the factory specs...  I find it hard to understand how people are rebuilding these things if they don't have the factory specs...  Surely you aren't just taking the word of Turner Motorsports or ??? are you???  I know their pistons say "Exact dimensions of the factory pistons except for bore diameter... Perfect for ITS"...  But how can you be sure?  How are THEY sure???

Interesting issue...

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Oh my....

You should read about the hellabaloo in BMWCCA racing this year regarding tech of pistons and the fallout. It was so bad it was labeled "Pistongage." I kid you not. I know a lot of the folks here know what I'm talking about.

 

[Geo]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Nov 10 2005, 02:59 PM

I've sort of resigned myself to the fact that I cannot have a legally prepped IT motor....at least not one with the information I've found so far.  The IT legal parts that the Japanese guys have access to just don't seem to exsist for my particular application.  My motor will remain untouched at this point,  and I will probably always run a "bone" stock motor for this very reason. My opinion is that is why the BMWCCA rulebook is more liberal than the SCCA GCR.

I'm very curious to see what Sunbelt would say if I called stating that I wanted a potent, legal Z3 (m44) motor.....hmmmm........HOW MUCH ARE YOU WILLING TO SPEND?? I'm sure would be their response.  I'm assuming it would be TOTALLY cost prohibitive ?20K? because of all the custom manufacturing of parts that would meet factory specs.

If this seems like hogwash to any lurking BMW guy then please point me in the direction of someone who has IT LEGAL parts/knowledge for the m44 motor.....We can't even purchase underdrive pulleys, chips..yeah right the car doesn't have any!  Try a header....better off making one from scratch.(if not help me get the legal race weight at least down to the 2559lbs factory spec!!)  Thanks in advance.  (sorry for the bellyaching )

Rob

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You should log into Bimmerforums and follow the piston saga there.

I think SCCA IT rules are actually more liberal. Basically the rules at the beginning of the year in BMWCCA were essentially the same as IT for the prepared class. But, upon boroscope inspection someone was declared illegal due to a slight variationi in the valve reliefs, yet there is no factory spec for these reliefs.

Now in BMWCCA prepared you can only have pistons in the sizes available from the factory. It was an ugly mess for a while.

 

[Geo]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Nov 11 2005, 12:29 PM
The Z3 has a darn good (great) stock header anyone will agree (that maybe why no one makes an aftermarket).  Am I to design and build or have a new header built and dyno to find out what I had already (KNEW) suspected just to satisfy anyone who is skeptical on the CRB.

I'm sorry. I'm not buying. There is a similar common belief in the 944 world. LOTS of 944 racers will tell you that the stock header is within 1-2 hp of the best header available. I mean, people will swear on a stack of bibles and put their first born up for collateral. This is because what is commonly available does only add 1-2 hp MAX. However, I happen to know that there IS a header available that will add 8 hp.

You may indeed be 100% correct, but until someone undergoes an all out development program it's not going to fly. Do you have to build and try several prototype hand-made headers to find one that works? People in IT do it.

Now, if Sunbelt comes back and says this engine, built all out with MoTeC tuning, etc will only make a 20% increase, then that's a different story, especially if it's backed up elsewhere. Harsh, but true, and that's the way it HAS to be. Cars have to be classified based upon their potential and if their potential is unknown it has to be speculated upon based upon known factors. Off-the-shelf stuff is not state of the art when it comes to racing 99% of the time.