Brake Tech Rules

I just placed a quick call to Hawk to try and understand what they do.

- They use steel for the backing plates for no other reason than cost. There is no guarantee that they, or any other aftermarket company won't change, modify or otherwise upgrade/downgrade that composite. It just happens to be the same as OEM right now but some exotic pads are not.

- The bonding agent is significantly upgraded. As you can imagine, the temps these see is much higher so the resin they use is much different than OEM.

- The friction material is obviously different and only uses OEM for shape and proper fit.

So, while I do see both sides to this, I can't see how it's cut and dry. Joe and David, would you be saying that the aftermarket bonding material used for these pads is 'free' under the hardware rule? If only the friction material is free, then do you consider everything else to be taboo?

Like I said, I see the grey and have always considered the pad/bonding agent/backing plate to be one unit. Just trying to learn. I have always been of the mindset that any pad within a stock caliper on a stock rotor was the intent.
 
I just placed a quick call to Hawk to try and understand what they do.

- They use steel for the backing plates for no other reason than cost. There is no guarantee that they, or any other aftermarket company won't change, modify or otherwise upgrade/downgrade that composite. It just happens to be the same as OEM right now but some exotic pads are not.

- The bonding agent is significantly upgraded. As you can imagine, the temps these see is much higher so the resin they use is much different than OEM.

- The friction material is obviously different and only uses OEM for shape and proper fit.

So, while I do see both sides to this, I can't see how it's cut and dry. Joe and David, would you be saying that the aftermarket bonding material used for these pads is 'free' under the hardware rule? If only the friction material is free, then do you consider everything else to be taboo?

Like I said, I see the grey and have always considered the pad/bonding agent/backing plate to be one unit. Just trying to learn. I have always been of the mindset that any pad within a stock caliper on a stock rotor was the intent.
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WOAAAAA BIG DOG...Don't try to drag me into that shit stream.........My comments had nothing to do with backing plates as I believe the intent is to allow the pds to be installed into unmodified calipers. I do not believe that an aftermarket heatsink can be sold off as a factory antivibration device and the value of such a thing would be equal to the wiz-bang turbo intake generator (which i have dynoed BTW) Brake pads including the bcking plates are consumables and should be treated as such. All the other stuff is just more corn in the crap and it's my friend Davids way of existing. I do not believe it possible nor needed to make sure that the backing plate measures .001 thinkness of the factory part. I would how ever have a problem with a replacment plate made of titanium and half the thickness of OE so this would be one of those COA rulings on intent of the rule and the intent of the competitor to cheat them...Please re -read my previous post on the subject I offered help on how to cool and feel that we pick the car we pick even with the short comings...As soon as you try to fix the brakes on one model you have to fix the camshaft on another. That Andy was all I was saying.


Joe,

Ok, you feel that shims designed to assist in cooling/shielding should not be allowed. That's fine.

Would you have a problem with a wording change to permit a thicker shim to replace the OEM anti-squeal shim, on the non-piston side (i.e. outer pad) of the caliper to compensate for pad wear for single piston type calipers?
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Yes I would Greg, Again it is an allowance and again if you are wearing out the outer pad quicker then you are not addressing the problem....In the old days before we made trick cooling cans we ran a harder compound on the outside pad to resist the added heat from the rotor surface. On pinch calipers I spend a lot of time figuring out how to make the slides work and work correctly. The pressure on the out side can be made as high as the pressure on the inside if the slides work correctly....Key word is pressure then you need to figure out the heat. If the out side pad is seeing more heat you may need to run a harder pad out there to keep brakes on the car. Again Brakes are consumables and should be treated as such.
 
Jeff, the answers are per my humble understanding of the rules/glossary. :D

***David, question -- if the words of the rule are to be read to mean that only the pad friction material is free,***

IMHU of rule 9.1.3.C. (third paragraph) rule 9.1.3.D.6.a. & the glossary definition of Brake Pad/Lining the answer to this part of the question is, YES.

***doesn't that mean that you can only use stock backing pads or their EXACT equivalents? ***

IMHU of rule 9.1.3.C. (third paragraph) rule 9.1.3.D.6.a. & the glossary definition of Brake Pad/Lining the answer to this part of the question is, YES provided you are talking of the metal carrier of the replaceable friction material.

***To take Andy's point to the extreme, are we reduced to sending stock backing plates to Carbotech, etc. to have our "free" material applied to them?***

IMHU of the rules anyone may use a backing plate that meets the specifications of rule 9.1.3.C. (third paragraph).



Greg, being that you wanted to be heard I'll provide my best questions to you & my understanding of the rules to suggest that ______________, you fill in the blank. :D

***Since the GCR says 'Brake Pads' are free and isn't restricted to 'Pad Material' and since 'free' does mean 'anything goes' by having the shims and pads bonded together,***

Oh golly my friend Greg you need to re-read rule 9.1.3.C. (third paragraph) rule 9.1.3.D.6.a. & the glossary definition of Brake Lining/Pad.

***When I ran IT, to meet the spirit of the rule, I used to glue thicker shims to the backs of my pads to accomplish this.***

I presume you are saying that you glued shims to the steel plate that the replaceable friction material is attached to. Now that you have re-read rule 9.1.3.C. (third paragraph) rule 9.1.3.D.6.a. & the glossary definition of Brake Lining/Pad I'll bet you have a new outlook at what you were doing during your IT days.

***I was satisfied that I met the rule.***

IMHU of the IT & Production car brake pad rules when you were bonding shims during your IT days you were illegal & if your doing the same with your G Production car you continue to be illegal. :D
 
WOAAAAA BIG DOG...Don't try to drag me into that shit stream.........My comments had nothing to do with backing plates as I believe the intent is to allow the pds to be installed into unmodified calipers. I do not believe that an aftermarket heatsink can be sold off as a factory antivibration device and the value of such a thing would be equal to the wiz-bang turbo intake generator (which i have dynoed BTW) Brake pads including the bcking plates are consumables and should be treated as such. All the other stuff is just more corn in the crap and it's my friend Davids way of existing. I do not believe it possible nor needed to make sure that the backing plate measures .001 thinkness of the factory part. I would how ever have a problem with a replacment plate made of titanium and half the thickness of OE so this would be one of those COA rulings on intent of the rule and the intent of the competitor to cheat them...Please re -read my previous post on the subject I offered help on how to cool and feel that we pick the car we pick even with the short comings...As soon as you try to fix the brakes on one model you have to fix the camshaft on another. That Andy was all I was saying.


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No ill-intent here. I just read one of your previous posts as saying you thought any of this was illegal. My question then becomes - would you require the backing plate (what the friction material is bonded to) to be of OEM spec? What if someone came out with a pad that was bonded to a material like copper? Would you consider this illegal?
 
Jeff, the answers are per my humble understanding of the rules/glossary. :D

***David, question -- if the words of the rule are to be read to mean that only the pad friction material is free,***

IMHU of rule 9.1.3.C. (third paragraph) rule 9.1.3.D.6.a. & the glossary definition of Brake Pad/Lining the answer to this part of the question is, YES.

***doesn't that mean that you can only use stock backing pads or their EXACT equivalents? ***

IMHU of rule 9.1.3.C. (third paragraph) rule 9.1.3.D.6.a. & the glossary definition of Brake Pad/Lining the answer to this part of the question is, YES provided you are talking of the metal carrier of the replaceable friction material.

***To take Andy's point to the extreme, are we reduced to sending stock backing plates to Carbotech, etc. to have our "free" material applied to them?***

IMHU of the rules anyone may use a backing plate that meets the specifications of rule 9.1.3.C. (third paragraph).
Greg, being that you wanted to be heard I'll provide my best questions to you & my understanding of the rules to suggest that ______________, you fill in the blank. :D

***Since the GCR says 'Brake Pads' are free and isn't restricted to 'Pad Material' and since 'free' does mean 'anything goes' by having the shims and pads bonded together,***

Oh golly my friend Greg you need to re-read rule 9.1.3.C. (third paragraph) rule 9.1.3.D.6.a. & the glossary definition of Brake Lining/Pad.

***When I ran IT, to meet the spirit of the rule, I used to glue thicker shims to the backs of my pads to accomplish this.***

I presume you are saying that you glued shims to the steel plate that the replaceable friction material is attached to. Now that you have re-read rule 9.1.3.C. (third paragraph) rule 9.1.3.D.6.a. & the glossary definition of Brake Lining/Pad I'll bet you have a new outlook at what you were doing during your IT days.

***I was satisfied that I met the rule.***

IMHU of the IT & Production car brake pad rules when you were bonding shims during your IT days you were illegal & if your doing the same with your G Production car you continue to be illegal. :D
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Sorry David my friend you are picking the corn out of the crap pile again.....:) If there was an actual advantage to any of those things then it may be an issue but the reality is that most of what is being done has no more effect than making the driver feel good about something. David my friend this is one of those place where you would better use your time going after something important...


No ill-intent here. I just read one of your previous posts as saying you thought any of this was illegal. My question then becomes - would you require the backing plate (what the friction material is bonded to) to be of OEM spec? What if someone came out with a pad that was bonded to a material like copper? Would you consider this illegal?
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Andy, I would say a backing plate made of an alternate material would be illegal under the current writing of the rules. I would also say if thats all your beating me with then I better go to work on fixing my driving skills. Seriously as I said to David picking the corn man. I want people to play by the rules but why should we be dicking up this little stuff while the big shit gets a pass. I would much rather put up a bond to look at a camshaft than to ever look and the backing plate dimensions on a brake pad..........
 
***David, would you be saying that the aftermarket bonding material used for these pads is 'free' under the hardware rule? If only the friction material is free, then do you consider everything else to be taboo?***

Andy, I have presented the brake lining/pad rules & the glossary definition & have no intent of opening up any new doors for you to play in another room. :D

***All the other stuff is just more corn in the crap and it's my friend Davids way of existing.***

Joe, if en ya can't handle the rules find a new game with NEW friends & new rules. :D I play by the rules when I chose to get involved on this site. As you mature yer getting more different as the days go by.

EDIT:

***Sorry David my friend you are picking the corn out of the crap pile again.....***

Joe, a rule is a rule is a rule & the time for picking corn is when there is minimal corn in the small crap pile. I tell ya what, when I get my Spec Miata complete I'm going to learn how to write a protest paper & get some poor sole with an illegal Spec Miata roll cage. I can see the who ever response before I write the protest paper, Vexatious Protest. Why, because there are MANY illegal Spec Miat & ITA Miata roll cages & rather than laying a hardship on the illegal roll cages they will make a rule change to make legal the illegal roll cages the same as they did with the Spherical bearing. :D

Now back to your point Joe, when was the last time you viewed someone protest ANYTHING of an IT car? I understand what your saying about the non win factor but as I said rules are well you know the finish of that sentence. :D
 
***David, would you be saying that the aftermarket bonding material used for these pads is 'free' under the hardware rule? If only the friction material is free, then do you consider everything else to be taboo?***

Andy, I have presented the brake lining/pad rules & the glossary definition & have no intent of opening up any new doors for you to play in another room. :D

***All the other stuff is just more corn in the crap and it's my friend Davids way of existing.***

Joe, if en ya can't handle the rules find a new game with NEW friends & new rules. :D I play by the rules when I chose to get involved on this site. As you mature yer getting more different as the days go by.
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Sorry David you can see it how you want but you are not buildling and running 20 to 25 races a year....There is way important crap to deal with than this. You by spending time pickig at these old scabs only waste the important time these guys could spend fixing real rules that are real problems. Right now over this stupid f'in thread there is a group of techi's and stewards and region officails thinking...."will we be having pad protests at the ARRC this year.....WHAT A WASTE OF TIME...............................So you can say what you want about me old friend but the fact is that this is the shortbus car club of america and non of us will ever see the same words written in black and white so you really need to get over it....If I see Jeff show up with a set of brembo's on his TR we are going to hand paper but if want to run little metal maxipads with wings because it makes him feel good then BFD he is the one thats missing out on real brake information. The thread has degraded to the same level as the SM thread so i'll be signing off now...If somebody wants real cooling help and information i am around other places.
 
Don't read too much into these internet discussions. It's all conceptual thinking. Legal or not, it's bench racing. What people will protetst is not at issue here. I personally decide if I think the driver has an illegal item that makes him faster. Missing washer bottles do not win you races but when push comes to shove, not having them is illegal.

I have always considered the pad/plate to be a single unit. I still do. I bet that is the intent as well but unless we get an official ruling, nobody will ever know.
 
Joe,

I don't have an issue with wearing the outer pad unevenly. The shim I was specifically refering to has absolutely nothing to do with heat. I'm addressing an issue caused purely by caliper flex under static conditions. I can take brand spanking new calipers with brand new guide pins and put brand new pads at ambient temperature and I will get an optimum brake pedal. If I do nothing else but swap out the new pads and install used pads, I will have a softer brake pedal due to increased caliper flex because less of the guide pin is now engaged in the caliper. Heat has nothing to do with it. You can feel the effect under cool status conditions. A worn pad will cause increased flex. The tapered wearing is a result of the flex (the pads literally rock in caliper as they wear. Hell, just watch an older Honda caliper when you pump the pedal sometime, the calipers flex like crazy. Install a shim in the outer pad to push the piston back the same amount as a new pad would and voila, instant brake pedal, almost like new. The only other possible solution to correct this issue would be to install thicker or longer guide pins (not legal since you are modifying the calipers) or to modify the bushings to reduce the clearence (also not legal for the same reason). That leaves unrestricted barke pads.

I agree that if I were having dynamic pedal issues due to heat related caliper flex/tapered wearing, that your solution of different compounds for each side would be effective. You can also achieve the same effect by grinding some pad material off of the leading edge.

Yes I know pads are consumables (as are rotors). I have no problem tossing a set of $20 rotors after 1-2 races, but tossing away a set of $200 pads after one session with 90% pad left is crazy.

David,

I do not believe I am torturing the pad rules. Prior to posting, I reread the rule. It states "Brake Pads.......are UNRESTRICTED". To me, unrestricted does in fact mean "no restrictions".

It doesn't say pad material. It specifically states brake pads. So there is no restriction on the compound, bonding material, or backing plate, all of which make up the brake pad. I can make the backing plate as thick or as thin as I want. I can use solid backing plates, or I can use plates that have large holes to assist in the bonding of the material (like OEM pads), I try to avoid the latter since I have found the holes tend to weaken the backen plates and they are more prone to bending. My current pad manufacturer builds my unrestricted pads out out solid unrestricted material (actually it's mild steel) with a slightly thicker backing plate to help resist bending. There is no restriction on how the material is bonded i.e. rivets, special bonding agent, both, etc. The pads can have the leading edge of the pad material ground down to minimize tapered wear like some OEM BMW pads, or they can have a flat unrestricted profile. The pads can have a slot milled across the center (like the OEM pads) to provide a 'degassing' groove' or they can be solid to increase the surface area.

Since pads are unrestricted in their construction (material, bonding agent and method, plate thickness) there is also no restriction as to how they are constructed, or who for that matter makes them. If I bond/rivet/weld a thicker shim to the back of the pad, the shim is now part of the unrestricted pad assembly.

I do agree that the cooling shims that extend outside of the caliper (discussed above) are a grey area, and have conceded that they are probably not legal, if for no other reasn that they are seperate item from the unrestricted pad and extend beyond the caliper. I personally have no problem with that design but obviously others do.
 
Greg, I gave you ALL the information you needed relative to "Brake Pads" & you still have not understood the definition of a "Beake Pad".

I repeat please re-read the following.

***Oh golly my friend Greg you need to re-read rule 9.1.3.C. (third paragraph) rule 9.1.3.D.6.a. & the glossary definition of Brake Lining/Pad.***

If you have read this ^ info & continue to believe the steel carrier of the replaceable friction material is included within the glossary definition of "Brake Pad" somethings missing that I can't help you with. :D

Or ask Vern what the GCR glossary definition of a "Brake Pad " is. It don't include the steel carrier of the replaceable friction material my friend. :D

Andy, we don't use INTENT when writting paper, we use the words of the written rule. :023:
 
Greg, I gave you ALL the information you needed relative to "Brake Pads" & you still have not understood the definition of a "Beake Pad".

I repeat please re-read the following.

***Oh golly my friend Greg you need to re-read rule 9.1.3.C. (third paragraph) rule 9.1.3.D.6.a. & the glossary definition of Brake Lining/Pad.***

If you have read this ^ info & continue to believe the steel carrier of the replaceable friction material is included within the glossary definition of "Brake Pad" somethings missing that I can't help you with. :D

Or ask Vern what the GCR glossary definition of a "Brake Pad " is. It don't include the steel carrier of the replaceable friction material my friend. :D

Andy, we don't use INTENT when writting paper, we use the words of the written rule. :023:
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Brake Lining/Pad - Replaceable friction material which accomplishes braking action by making rubbing contact with the brake drum or rotor.

David , you have completely lost all of you common sense sir you are arguing from the dumbest f'in position I have ever seen.. Now explain how the average competitor is going to reline his/her own material. The word replaceable is the key to the whole sentence...The replaceable part of the PAD is complete with backing place which then becomes un restricted. Adding a non stock shim or heatsink is truely not legal. As much as I hate to say it the backing plate could fall under the replacable part of the pad. I believe I would win that argument in stating that the backing plate is the second stage of my two stage friction material....:) Metal to Metal still meets your beloved definition my friend......
 
Normally we see tortured rule interpretations justifying allowances, not restrictions.

When I go buy replacement friction material for my Volkswagen, from the dealer, parts store, junk yard or race pad shop, it comes attached to a backing plate that is not an exact duplicate of the original unit.

I think what I just read suggests that I need to send some original stock pads to Hawk and have them tool up the line to make a set of brake pads for me. :023:

[edit] didn't see Joe's post before I made mine
 
Brake Lining/Pad - Replaceable friction material which accomplishes braking action by making rubbing contact with the brake drum or rotor.

Now explain how the average competitor is going to reline his/her own material. The word replaceable is the key to the whole sentence...The replaceable part of the PAD is complete with backing place which then becomes un restricted. [/b]
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:happy204:
 
IF the backing plate were NOT considered to be part of the "Brake pad" that is puprported to be ( by some) in the GCR definition, then we have a large percentage of cars racing with illegal parts, because, as stated above, when someone goes to the store to buy a set of replacement pads for their car, they don't get the same thing every time. The backing plate is thicker, or thinnner, with holes, or without holes, with larger registration tabs, or with tiny registration tabs, etc, etc, etc. I've seen many sets for the same car and wondered, "Jeez, these look different,", but lo and behold they fit, and worked fine.

IF the rule is for the friction material ONLY, and NOT the pad, how will we be legal? How will a protest be written? Where can we find the factory documentation of what the REAL backing plate is SUPPOSED to be? And what if the car came from the factory with several manufacturers parts, but only one is documented? (IF we could even find THAT documentation?)

I suggest that perhaps the definition was written without thought as to the backing plate, as it's integral in the scheme of things. If anything, the glossary definition might need some fine tuning.

I think if we were to take the position that the pad material is free, but the backing plate is not, we're going to be wasting a lot of time and drawing a line thats impossible to be on the legal side of....
 
i am so goofed. my current pads are glued to solid backing plates instead of riveted to backing plates like the OEM.

or wait, were the OEM ones glued and the original cheater pads riveted? shoot, now you've got me all mixed up to if i'm cheating now or was cheating then.

cmon guys, it's June. we should be racing. this thread looks more like late March. :dead_horse:

i'm gonna go work on my flux capacitor and get back to the future.
 
I have mulled this over for awhile and my position has evolved somewhat. My version of common sense parses this issue thusly: when I go to either the dealer or to Auto Zone and I buy "brake pads", they consist of a pad material bonded/riveted to some kind of backing plate. The GCR says the "brake pads" are "unrestricted". Hence, I think that the materials involved, and the size and shape or thickness, of the brake pad are all open to do whatever you want. Technically, the thickness has to be free by definition or else the second you start to wear down a stock pad it isn't legal anymore since the thickness differs from stock. Extra shims are not legal since it's a separate part from the pad. However, if the shim is bonded to the pad, then it's part of the pad. But why bother with shims? Just get Hawk or Porterfield to make some brake pads for you that have their friction material bonded to a 6Al-4V titanium backing plate. It seems completely legal to me.

I think there should probably be a wording clarification to say that the stock "outline" of the brake pad must be maintained to prevent the little winged heat radiator thingies from being used, but as the rules are currently written I would think that if they were bonded to the padthen they would be legal.

I still think the recirculator is illegal in spirit, but maybe not according to the strict wording of the rule...
 
nerds.jpg


NERDS!

:lol:
 
This response is to my friend Joe & a couple Yuks that are hanging in his camp.

***David , you have completely lost all of you common sense sir you are arguing from the dumbest f'in position I have ever seen..***

No Joe I don't believe I have & we are each entitled to an understanding of the rules per the written rule. No if's, coulds or intents.

***Brake Lining/Pad - Replaceable friction material which accomplishes braking action by making rubbing contact with the brake drum or rotor.***

You show great capability to copy ^ the rule. Using your common sense Joe are there any word/words that define anything other than "replaceable friction material" ? Don't go near your lack of common sense steel on steel nonsense.

***Now explain how the average competitor is going to reline his/her own material.***

First Joe, I am an average competitor & I have sent Porterfield shoes with worn out friction material & had the lining of my choice installed.

Second Joe, I have a close friend that has been running the family business for 30 years that manfactures & sells new & remanufactured friction material brake & clutch stuff. They do bonding & riveting..............

***The word replaceable is the key to the whole sentence...The replaceable part of the PAD is complete with backing place which then becomes un restricted.***

Joe, that ^ is your missguided understanding of the GCR glosssary definition. As stated above no where in the definition is the word backing plate included in the definition.

***As much as I hate to say it the backing plate could fall under the replacable part of the pad.***

Joe, now were getting to the meat of the entire discussion. BUT, your word COULD in the above sentence is just like all the if's & intents in the world & they don't count. The words BACKING PLATE are NOT used within the GCR glossary definition of "Brake Pad".

IF I were to buy your definition (& I DON'T) that the backing plate is an intergral part of the GCR glossary definition of brake pad then the backing plate would also be unrestricted & one could use ANY material they chose for the backing plate material........................ Shall I copy & attach the thermal conductivity of a large list of materials so that one may choose the material with the least conductivity? Joe, on this subject you need to remember that when you talk the talk you need to be able to walk the walk.

***Adding a non stock shim or heatsink is truely not legal.***

Joe, I agree that adding a non stock shim is illegal. BUT, I believe your common sense really really wants to be careful using the word heat sink.

Joe, with YOUR understanding of the rule & as you have stated one may use an unrestricted material for the backing plate therefore YOU & the YUKS are home free.

Jeff, this statement below is not said sarcastically, it's said using other peoples understanding of the brake pad rule. We are now back to your first post that opened this thread & according to Joe & a few others rule understanding you MAY use any material for your backing plate. You need not mess around with shims or other stuff to keep the heat from transfering to your caliper/caliper piston/brake fluid.
 
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