cam "blue printing"

The bottom line here (to me) is this:

You run the cam that came in your car as listed on the spec line. Or.....you get creative.
You get protested and the cam is sent to Topeka and the Cam Doctor. They procure a stock replacement. You match it, and your are golden. You don't match, and trouble ensues. Maybe they procure another, even two to double and triple check..I'm not sure how far they'll go, but I imagine you might be abe to request that in the prostes, as long as you are willing to pay for any 'above and beyond" costs. The whole part of setting up the protest has some flexibility to it.

Now, the only place where I can see that you can take your published specs, and 'Build a cam" that meets those specs, but is optimized in other respects is when there is no possible way for anyone to procure a stock example to check against. At that point, you're making a bet that when you get protested nobody will come up with the proof to show that your cam has been cheated up.
 
lateapex911 said:
Now, the only place where I can see that you can take your published specs, and 'Build a cam" that meets those specs, but is optimized in other respects is when there is no possible way for anyone to procure a stock example to check against. At that point, you're making a bet that when you get protested nobody will come up with the proof to show that your cam has been cheated up.
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And again, let's make sure we clarify two things on the table here. Blue printing a cam would be 'building' one to the top or best of all the factory tolerences. All very legal and above board. Expensive and a waste? Yes and maybe - depends on teh car I would bet.

The other is building a cam to the specs where they exist and fudging other dimensions where they don't...it may meet the published specs where you measure - but when you put them spec for spec against a stock unit, you would see the difference...and probably get bounced. Hopefully.
 
Andy Bettencourt said:
And again, let's make sure we clarify two things on the table here. Blue printing a cam would be 'building' one to the top or best of all the factory tolerences. All very legal and above board. Expensive and a waste? Yes and maybe - depends on teh car I would bet.
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It may be a waste to some.. I know Sunbelt buys massive quantities of cams for miatas measures them all and sells them accordingly to the SM guys.
 
quadzjr said:
It may be a waste to some.. I know Sunbelt buys massive quantities of cams for miatas measures them all and sells them accordingly to the SM guys.
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And that is called 'parts bin' blue-printing. Some engine builders require you to ship them a crate motor. They then disassemble the unit, measure and then shelve the parts. If you are a 'good' customer, you get the lightest factory stuff all mtached in weight. If you are an 'average' customer, you get the heavier stuff all matched in weight.
 
yeah.. hence the "stock motors" that cost thousands and thousands of dollars.. just crazy..

I guess that is one great advantage with runnign a Miata.. every tip and trick that can be done to a "stock" motor can be applied to an IT motor.
 
quadzjr said:
yeah.. hence the "stock motors" that cost thousands and thousands of dollars.. just crazy..

I guess that is one great advantage with runnign a Miata.. every tip and trick that can be done to a "stock" motor can be applied to an IT motor.
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Trust me when I tell you that some of the tricks that make those 'pro' Miata motors fast are neither SM legal OR IT legal.

What SM HAS done is open the eyes of many to what pro builders do - regardless of make or model. They are always developing and pushing the envelope....it's their job.
 
Part Bin engine's have been happening for a long long time, nothing you can do about it. It's when the engine builder start's to substitute with not so factory or modified parts that all hell breaks loose, like in SSGT a number of years ago @ the Mid O runoffs, they threw out the top 4 or 5 cars and they were all built by the same person. :~) People with money will go to extremes for 1 or 2 hp. In SM they get special fuel that cost's $45.00 per gal. and will give you about 1 to 2 hp.
 
Andy Bettencourt said:
Trust me when I tell you that some of the tricks that make those 'pro' Miata motors fast are neither SM legal OR IT legal.

What SM HAS done is open the eyes of many to what pro builders do - regardless of make or model. They are always developing and pushing the envelope....it's their job.
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Oh I know and have seen a plenty.. From tearing apart motors that were built for IT by top companines.. and while I was going through the engine.. There were many things that were not legal.. but it requried a full teardown, and stock motor right next to it to tell anything was out of the ordinary, for the majority of the items..

I was amazed just the bit of horsepower gained from modifying stock sensor.. Against the rules in SM
 
There is a really good thread on specmiata.com where a guy tore down I think a Rebello SM motor, a Sunbelt Motor and a Race Engineering motor.

Just blatantly illegal stuff in some of them (I can't remember which ones). Blatantly.

I think Jake and Andy nailed the legality issue on cam blueprinting. Making it match the best factory specs? Fine. Any other fudging? Not fine.

Ron ran into this with the oddball C cam for the Z car. It's hard to even find a SINGLE C cam, much less a good one. So, you have one cut, but you do it right.
 
most of the illegal stuff is in the Race Engineering motors from what i've seen.

but a builder will do whatever you ask them to......
 
You will get asked a question..

"do you want to pass tech? or do you want it to be legal?"

The most reacent that I can remember race engineering had alot of problesm getting busted for valve spring shimming.. when there is nothing in the book allowing it for the later years..

The Robello engine I worked on alos had illegal parts.. the only blatantly illegal parts were ones that performed no real performance gains only increasing the longevity.
 
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Andy Bettencourt said:
Trust me when I tell you that some of the tricks that make those 'pro' Miata motors fast are neither SM legal OR IT legal.
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Uh, yeah. Been there, torn that down.

OK, so I'm not smart enough to multi-quote, so from quadzjr:

The most reacent that I can remember race engineering had alot of problesm getting busted for valve spring shimming.. when there is nothing in the book allowing it for the later years..
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I'm assuming you are talking about last year's Runoffs; those weren't Bob's engines. I know, I wrote the RFA on them.

Now from Travis:

most of the illegal stuff is in the Race Engineering motors from what i've seen.
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Hmm. I figure I've torn down as many SM engines as any scrutineer in the club, and I don't recall ever writing paper on one of Bob's engines. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Finally, from quadzjr, again:

...it requried a full teardown, and stock motor right next to it to tell anything was out of the ordinary, for the majority of the items.
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And that's why we do it that way.

Last thing - there's also the Laywer factor: What may seem clearly non-compliant could be allowed on appeal, depending on who writes your letter to the COA...
 
that's because his motors aren't good enough to get to where you're at Ty, at least not legally. i'd venture to speculate that's why he was in the RO's tech shed for SM last year....he wanted to see why/how he was getting beat.

you have 10,000 times more experience than i do with this stuff, but the real bad cheating that i've seen/heard of second hand has all been RE.
 
Its always interesting to see the total lack of class some people have to post speculation about builders cheating. Every driver is responsible for the legality of what they put in the car and race. It is up to the driver to purchase a legal motor for that class. The builder does what the customer asks. I have had requests for a mild EP RX7 motor that I knew was going in an ITS car. I didn't build it, but would I be the cheater if I did? Is there anyone else you wish to slander with your inuendo today Travis??
 
Hello,

My name is Bob Thornton I am the Owner of Race Engineering. We build engines mostly for Spec Miata, IT and Spec E-30 as well as the odd circle track engine. I have built over 2000 engines in my engine building career over 1800 of them have been Spec Miata engines and have done testing for various teams and companies such as Joe Gibbs Racing, General Motors, ARP, NPD, Total Seal, Carbotech and Dyno Jet just to name a few.

The purpose of this post is to introduce myself to this forum. And to correct some of the above posted statements that were presented as facts which are non factual.

It seems that Mr TNORD has taken it upon himself to present to this forum information pertaining to myself and my company for slanderous purposes. To my knowledge I don't know Mr TNORD nor have ever built an engine for him. I have no knowledge of his credentials or expertise in the professional engine building field as well as any expertise he may have in the terms of tech.
I would also like to say before I delve into any facts that I have been consulted multiple times by the IT Comp Board.

1. - I have never had an engine be deemed non compliant for any shimming issues.

2. - Mr TNORD has an opinion that the only way I can get to the runoffs is to be there in tech. Something to the effect that I do not have the ability to build a compliant engine or one that is competitive enough. The fact is that I have won over 30 championships as a Spec Miata engine builder and three championships as a driver in Spec Miata and have had more track records either as a driver or as an engine builder than I can keep track of and have personally won over 50 SCCA races. And personally have NEVER been found non compliant. I would like to know where all these cheated up engines are that Mr. TNORD has said he has seen? Also who deemed them non compliant and what their credentials are?

3. - Since SM has become a National Class I have probably had as many engines at the runoffs as any other engine builder and more than most and have passed numerous complete engine tear downs to which Ty Till can attest. As for Mr TNORD suggesting that I need to go there so that I can learn the tricks, in the famous words of my mentor Smokey Yunick "I pride myself on being an innovator not a copier."

4. - The reason I go to the runoffs is to be there for my customers and to try and give something back to the SCCA. I do this since it is a club and it has allowed me to have a company that I have gained so many great friends and customers from for many years. Also Mr Eckridge can attest to the fact that I spent three years as a Central Carolina Region board member, which is on a volunteer basis.

5. - As an engine builder I have been found non compliant two times

One was a cam shaft in a protest situation in which I took full responsibility for publicly. The cam shaft had two lobes which were out of tolerance 1/4 of a degree at 10,000 lift. Which certainly is no performance advantage but, never the less, it was non compliant.

The other was a non compliant timing issue on a 99 which occurred at the runoffs in 2007 in a compliance check. I inadvertently installed an oil pump from a 94 1.8 engine onto a 99 engine and the timing sensor boss was in a slightly different position in which it caused the ignition timing to be off. It actually retarded the timing as opposed to advancing the timing which resulted in less horsepower and Tim Buck at Mazda Speed Motorsports Development as well as Ty Till can substantiate this statement.

I usually do not address these types of posts but the blatant inaccuracies stated throughout this thread needed to be corrected. If anyone has any further questions or comments I can be reached at Race Engineering 704-202-5551.

Thank You

Bob Thornton
 
Thanks for the post Bob. Some people seem to forget that slanderous posts about companies without facts is irresponsible and potentially expensive. Companies like Race Engineering, Rebello, and others make their living on their reputation. Think before you use second hand gossip to degrade them. How would you feel if they showed up at your place of business spouting lies? I know them both to be incredible motor builders and honest businesses.
 
seckerich said:
Thanks for the post Bob. Some people seem to forget that slanderous posts about companies without facts is irresponsible and potentially expensive. Companies like Race Engineering, Rebello, and others make their living on their reputation. Think before you use second hand gossip to degrade them. How would you feel if they showed up at your place of business spouting lies? I know them both to be incredible motor builders and honest businesses.
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For you to presume I'm lying would be a mistake.
 
Let's keep it on topic. Lots of good knowledge for people in this thread on not just cams, but on blue-printing and what sometimes does comprise a no-expense-spared legal IT motor.
 
x-ring said:
I'm assuming you are talking about last year's Runoffs; those weren't Bob's engines. I know, I wrote the RFA on them.
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Correct me if I am wrong, that engine was for a '99 and was built by Karl Zimmerman of ART, who, interestingly enough, is no longer listed as an advertiser there. The issue was "explained" publicly on the SM web site shortly after that here and in other threads. They also had a similar problem at the same time with a Honda motor built for Andy Hollis at the solo nationals - valve springs shimmed not in accordance with manufacturer's procedures. That resulted in Hollis forfitting his points and earnings for the season.
 
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