Can cars with 14" wheels now use 13" wheels?

J

Jake

New member
Honest question - the new wording from the January Fasttrack is:

"cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit up to a fifteen (15) inch wheel."

So say my car came originally equipped with (14) inch wheels, if I use a 13" wheel, does that qualify as "up to a fifteen (15) inch wheel" ?

On the one hand, they did not specify that the "up to" subset has to be larger than stock. On the other hand, if it is legal, there is no wording to allow cars originally equipped with 15"s to use 14's or 13's.

Jake "can't afford new final drive and would love to use those short 13"'s like the RX7 guys" Fisher
 
The way I read it, any ITS or ITA car can now use any size wheel up to 15", and no more than 7" in width.

A good change.
 
Here's the full text. The uppercase "UP TO" was added in the Jan Fasttrack.

17.1.4.D.7.a.1 Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may fit thirteen (13) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with metric 365 wheels may fit fourteen (14) inch wheels, and cars originally equipped with metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch wheels. The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit UP TO fifteen (15) inch wheels. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.
 
Okay, this is like reading a statute.

So, literally, I think if you have 13" or 14" wheels stock, you can run ANY size wheel UP To 15", meaning you can go to 13"

But what about guys with 15"? They can't go down....nor can guys with 16". Only 13" and 14" wheel guys have a choice.

Interesting...not sure if that was the intent, but maybe it was.
 
Hey, if spherical bearings, MoTec, and hogging out the ports within one inch is legal, I see no problems with going DOWN in wheel size from stock.

Welcome to the "Laws of Unintended Consequences", boys and girls. (http://tinyurl.com/5awbs)

- GA
 
The intent of the rule was to allow a move UP, not down. 13's can run 14 or 15. 14's car run 15. 15's are stuck at 15.

It doesn't say you can run ANY size up to 15". It says "The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit UP TO fifteen (15) inch wheels.".

Maybe clearer wording is needed but it WAS NOT the intent to allow a downward move.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
I think we under-utilize an important resource around here, remembering that Jeff's a lawyer...
smile.gif


K
 
Clearly if the intent was to allow only those vehicles with stock wheels 15" or smaller in diameter to increase their wheel size to a maximum of 15" diameter, a clarification is in order.

Maybe the ITAC can toss the purposed clarified wording out here for some of the wordsmiths to shoot holes in?

I thought this was discussed some time back when one of the ITAC members (Darin???) was convinced that the wording and intent weren't aligned and that a clarification was in order, perhaps one is already on its' way??
 
That's really stretching it. 14" rim / up to 15" rim means down to 13" rim?

If you do get some 13" rims, could you only buy 6" wide ones? I won't be able to use 7" wide ones now that I'm in B.

Jake - what happened to hoosier 13" and 14" tires having the same diameter due to tire size selections avail.?

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si
 
Dave,

If you don't read "up to" as meaning "increase size to"

then it is clearer that "up to" could very well mean "size not to exceed".

That is why it is difficult to write these rules, when you know what you meant the rule is perfectly clear, until someone reads it that isn't certain what you meant and can interpret it to mean something different.
 
No offense to the ITAC, as I have seen statutes and regs FAR FAR more densely and drafted, that missed their intended target by quite a bit.

Here, the key language is: "The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit UP TO fifteen (15) inch wheels."

I think there is a good (better than the opposing one) argument that the words "may fit UP TO" 15" wheels means that you can use any wheel size UP TO 15".

I know that is not the intent, but I'd take that argument over the other in front of Ole Judge Cashwell anyday.

Kirk, where do I send the bill?
 
Hee hee~ Can't wait 'till Geo gets a read of this!

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit UP TO fifteen (15) inch wheels.</font>
Click to expand...

Looks like anything that came stock with rims less than, but not equal to 15" can fit UP TO a 15 " rim, right?

So that means my 13" stock rim could use a 14" right? Or a 15"...same for a 12" stock size..he could choose a 13", 14" OR a 15", right? If we agree that this is the case, logic tells me a car that is not delivered with 15" rims has free choice. Therefor, a 14" stock rim can use a 15", stay stock with a 14"....or fit a 13".

The line should read, "bla bla bla,.... cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may increase (only) rim diameter UP TO fifteen (15) inch wheels."

But it doesn't say that...so I think you're good to go.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited December 02, 2004).]
 
Someplace in Kansas, Dorothy...

Was I the only one here during all of the conversations before the rule got changed? Does ANYONE remember ANYONE making the case that cars should be allowed to use smaller diameter wheels than defined on their spec line?

The entire deal was presented in terms of wheel and tire availability, particularly a shortage of 14x7 wheels. I seem to recall people predicting that appropriate tires just wouldn't be available for 13" wheels in the near future. Gloom. Doom. Mayhem!

K

Edit - the wording does leave the loophole described in the first post.

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited December 02, 2004).]
 
Imagine that, competitive people trying to juice a rule for all advantages they can. Smaller wheels = cheap gearing.

Kirk, I don't remember anyone asking about going smaller. You are right. BUT, the words used say "UP TO" and don't exclude the use of wheels less than 15."

But let's look at this:

1. 15" wheel guys can't move down.

2. 13" wheel guys can effectively ONLY move up. They just get a choice.

4. 14" guys are the only ones who can go down.

So, the unintended consequence (great link Greg) here is not significant. And could easily be corrected with the following change:

The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may increase their wheel size UP TO fifteen (15) inch wheels.

Edit -- Jake, you beat me to it.

[This message has been edited by JeffYoung (edited December 02, 2004).]
 
On the other hand, do I care that Jake is saving money with cheap rims instead of $$$ final drives? Probably not.

Do I care that someone else, who has no access to a lower final drive (it's not made, for example) for their model can fit smaller rims to acheive a lower final drive? I do IF the ITAC and the CRB knew the limitations of that car ,and adjusted it's weight accordingly when it was classed originally.

Frankly, my confidence of the weight being set to accomodate cars with no final drive options avaialble is pretty low.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
Just to clarify the Intent, then an explanation:

12 can go to 13, 14, or 15.
13 can go to 14 or 15
14 can go to 15
15 can do nothing
NOBODY can GO DOWN in diameter. NOBODY.

Our original wording was botched in translation from our con-call to the minutes. We re-clarified.

Shoot this full of holes:

17.1.4.D.7.a.1 Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may fit thirteen (13) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with metric 365 wheels may fit fourteen (14) inch wheels, and cars originally equipped with metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch wheels. The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may increase the diameter of their GCR-specified wheel UP TO fifteen (15) inches. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.

************
Any good?

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
For those of you thinking you can move down in size, please quote the wording that says "down to."


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
For the record, in past threads I argued quite a lot to open up wheel diamter because the only advantage to going to 13's is the same advantage as changing final drive - which is legal. And yes, the only hope with my MR2 is to have custom gears made at a cost greater than the value of my car.

I understand the intent because I am on this board, but if I wasn't and just purchased a GCR with that wording, I'd be picking up one of those sets of 13x7 panasports on eBay right now!
 
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