Can cars with 14" wheels now use 13" wheels?

You guys can play word games all you want, but I guarandamntee you that 6, 12, 18, 24+ months from now the "intent" of the rules will be long forgotten. Don't believe me? Hey, Andy, show me proof of the original intent of the "alternate bushing materials" on the suspension. Darin, you take up the original intent of the port matching. George, you get the ECU rules.

Now, each of you present to the group, in a hundred words or less, how you're going to stop someone from installing spherical suspension bushings, a MoTec ECU, and/or hogging out their exhaust ports to match their custom-built header.

George, come on: when you use vernacular terms for rules and regulations, you get vernacular translations. "Up to" and "down to" refers to position and location, not size. Traditionally speaking, it can be - and will be - translated to either mean an increase in size *OR* simply 'a maximum value'. And, just as in the examples I gave above, both are correct. Are you going to attend all Regional events infinitum to make sure all local tech guys "interpret" the wording the way y'all meant it? If so, can we also recruit the guys that wrote the ECU, bushings, and port-matching rules to travel along with you? Now you know how *those* guys feel/felt.

Let's face it: it got blown. Either deal with it, or request a rule change pronto (yep, much further past this point and it's a rule "change".) No matter how carefully you write it, no matter how carefully you think you've got it covered, someone's gonna come around and flip the world upside down.

I'm pretty impressed, actually. Ingenuity and innovation at its best. Makes me smile.

Frankly, though, I'm just seriously pissed that my brakes are too large to run a 12" wheel, 'cause I'd be ordering them first thing tomorrow...

GregA
 
Greg,

The way I read it, it got blown, and I am TELLING you what the original intent is...that is why I posted my correction/idea. Any constructive thoughts on that?

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited December 02, 2004).]
 
Andy, that's the fix (use of the word increase). Makes it clear what you can do.

George, I would argue, strongly and correctly I think, that "up to" means you can fit anything up to 15".

Matlock impersonation on. My mother used to say, "Son, you can ride your bike up to Wise Dr. That's the limit, the Rubicon, the Great Divide. Do not go past it."

What she meant by "up to," your honor, was that I could go anywhere within the limit I wanted, just not past it. That was what up to meant to my mother (the ultimate Rule Arbiter), and I submit, your honor, that that's precisely what it means here. The rule says I can go UP TO 15". It sets a maximum under which I can operately freely, so if your honor would like to sell my those 13X7 Panasports on yonder MGB, I'd be mighty obliged."
 
Sorry to overpost, sitting here at work and bored.

Andy, I think your language works perfectly because it makes it clear that you can only changes sizes in one direction -- up. This qualifies movement in the range allowed by the maximum set by the up to clause. It states that movement can only be upward.

No holes in that one.
 
Well, I still don't see where it says you can go down in size. But, since you lawyer types (real and play one on the Internet) want to make arguments that you can, you're right, we should probably get that changed.

I wouldn't invest in smaller wheels. You'll be disappointed when you find out they are worthless to you.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Andy, good constructive criticism has been offered; I'm just causin' trouble. 'Cause I can. And 'cause it's fun.

George, the reason you don't understand the flack is because you're from Texas. I *know* how yer readin' it; ah used to speak Texan too, 'member? Yer readin' as "you boys kin change yer wheels *UP* and I'm lettin' yew boys do it ter 14 or 15 inches". T'other boys, tho, are readin' it as any size "UP TO" 15 inches. And in case ya'll be changin' this here rule pert near soon, you best git on wid it 'fore someone goes and gets a Steward to approve it at the first race of ought-5, and then it goes through a court of them thar appeals and becomes what we Yankees up here call common law.

How about a larger picture? How come we're gettin' our jammies wadded up because someone may want to go down in wheel size? Why do we give a rat's patootie if they go smaller instead of bigger? So it ain't whatcha intended, so what? What's the advantage? (Edit for clarification to Texans
wink.gif
- what's the performance advantage that cannot be legally obtained another way?)

BTW, ITAC boys, I hope you're not taking this criticism - from me or anyone else - personally. It's not aimed at you, it's aimed at the words. There's a quote I have engraved on a plaque above my desk that has served me well for many years, and most definitely applies here:

"Avoid having your ego so close to your position that when your position falls, your ego goes with it." - Colin Powell


[This message has been edited by GregAmy (edited December 02, 2004).]
 
I've got 13" wheels on an ITS car. No dog in this fight.

But I do see an advantage to moving down. It is cheap gearing, at the same tire width. It only works for 14" tired cars, but it would not be worthless to them.

All pointless, Andy's going to change this and the rule will say what was intended without any chance for ambiguity. That I like.
 
Here's your rule. Replace the whole goldarn section with:

Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may fit thirteen (13), fourteen (14), or fifteen (15) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or metric 365 wheels wheels may fit fourteen (14) or fifteen (15) inch diameter wheels. Cars originally equipped with fourteen (14) inch or metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch diameter wheels. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type.

Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.

If you felt motivated, you could also get them to put in a little table to make it more clear.


Although, I still wonder why it's such a big deal...
 
...because if the functional application of the rule is to allow SOME-one to choose from among plus and minus size wheels - those of us with 14s - then EVERY-one should be accorded the same opportunity.

Would I run 13s if the rule didn't get changed? Honestly don't know. I hear that there aren't going to be ANY tires available in that diameter. Like, next week. Seriously. I heard it on Wind Tunnel or someplace...

K
 
Greg,

Thanks for the suggestion. We will get it fixed somehow. Understand this: I certainly haven't taken it personally. I saw the issue raised, recognized the problem, made a suggestion and an appeal to help, and will work to fix it. Nothing more, nothing less!
smile.gif


Oh ya, for you...look at the 1st and 5th picture down...two ITA cars...fun, fun fun...
smile.gif


http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/results.php

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited December 02, 2004).]
 
...and finally, an ode to a French idea that just didn't catch on:


Choosing tires for his Mustang, O'Steen
had a choice of fourteen or fifteen.
But that just wouldn't jive,
because "365"
was some wacky-ass size in between!


[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited December 02, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
Shoot this full of holes:

17.1.4.D.7.a.1 Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may fit thirteen (13) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with metric 365 wheels may fit fourteen (14) inch wheels, and cars originally equipped with metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch wheels. The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may increase the diameter of their GCR-specified wheel UP TO fifteen (15) inches. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.

************
Click to expand...

Andy,

read it c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y, you are suggesting that we can increase our wheelsize up to 15". So, I could go from a 12" to a 27"? Bling! Bling! Get sponsored by DUB
wink.gif


Maybe "increase wheel size up to a wheel no larger than 15" in diameter."????

On edit--I better make sure that I spell check any 'sponser' proposals...and use a calculator as well.



[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited December 03, 2004).]
 
How come people with 365 or 395's get to go down in size?
biggrin.gif




[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited December 02, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by JeffYoung:
All pointless, Andy's going to change this and the rule will say what was intended without any chance for ambiguity. That I like.
Click to expand...

It's all Andy's fault!

Andy! Change that damned rule already!


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
...and finally, an ode to a French idea that just didn't catch on:


Choosing tires for his Mustang, O'Steen
had a choice of fourteen or fifteen.
But that just wouldn't jive,
because "365"
was some wacky-ass size in between!
Click to expand...

Hey now...

Don't make me haiku you.
wink.gif


Too late.....

All these wheel choices
What is a racer to do
Head spinning like car

biggrin.gif



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Touche, Monsieur Kirk. I capitulate.

(Although, I must say, I just don't see why we're being so anal about this. Set a max wheel diameter and be done with it. The "original intent" of the wheel rules prior to 2005 was to maintain original wheel diameters, with rare allowance for rare wheels such as 12" and metric; we've crossed that bridge now so let's call a spade a spade and open it up. If a 75hp ITC Honda wants to run huge 17" wheels, knock yourself out.)

Andy, back to the B13, eh? You know where to find us as you begin beating your heads against the wall <grin>. I think these will be one of the cars for ITA, but you just can't open up your Internet browser and buy and the parts to bolt on. Like with all Nissans, be prepared to fabricate. Hey, why not just pay me an extraordinary amount of money for mine and be done with it? <big grin> Did you know I'm also building a '94 Miata? Possibly a double-duty SM/ITS.

GregA
 
We've seen the effect of "sloppy wording" in IT and SM and unintended consequences. "up to" in my opinion allows someone to reduce the size of their wheels. It would be better to state that wheel sizes cannot be reduced.
Now can someone do something with the "metal only" requirement since very few guys run metal wheels in IT. Lots may run alloy wheels but few are really metal.
 
Let me try:
Cars originally equipped with metric 365 wheels may fit fourteen (14) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with wheels smaller than (15) inches may fit a larger than GCR-specified wheel up to fifteen (15) inches. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.
 
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