CCPS-VIR cool down lap ruled legal for scoring
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Gary Gentry
New member
Hotshoe
New member
Gary,
.... And I second it..........
..... Can Andy take the place of this man?
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Gary Gentry
New member
Heh heh....I dunno...ya know, I don't personally know this particular SOM. While his decision, in consideration of what fact was and/or should have been known at the time and in consideration of what later came to be generally known as fact, is most strange and unreasonable (my firm opinion....again in light of the Official Results). I am hopeful that the he is man enough to entertain, and rule properly upon, all of the protests that are surely coming his way......I'll withhold my final judgement until a bit later. My respect, at this time, is still quite salvageable provided the right thing is done and the proper conclusions are reached. If that is not to be the case for some technical, personal, political, or unknown reason, then, well........not so much.
If it walks and quacks like a duck, and leaves little duck droppings behind on the sidewalk, it might very well be a duck even though someone might wish and hope it were some other critter. Treat the thing as it is, rule appropriately/fairly, and move on.....
I said this over on another forum but I'll say it again here.
This was not the only flag issue of the weekend.
SARRC open wheel race overall leader didn't get the checker flag first. 2 lapped cars did and then I did while running 2nd overall. Nothing bad happend just the overall leader ran an extra lap. During our qualifying a FV put a 2-3 foot wide oil slick down from the end of the back straight through turn 4. Noone in any of the corners/starter stand noticed it. No debris flag. This strip as everyone running after it saw was huge and went right under the starter stand. I pulled in and told the pit marshalls who seemed thoroughly confused that there was that much oil on track. We had one major crash the coincided with the oil right at pit entrance that eventually caused the session ot be ended although pretty much everyone had come in due to the oil. Noone ever mentioned seeing a debris flag.
Not the best showing by F&C in my opinion. I appreciate what they do but there were some pretty fundamental things that were screwed up.
This was not the only flag issue of the weekend.
SARRC open wheel race overall leader didn't get the checker flag first. 2 lapped cars did and then I did while running 2nd overall. Nothing bad happend just the overall leader ran an extra lap. During our qualifying a FV put a 2-3 foot wide oil slick down from the end of the back straight through turn 4. Noone in any of the corners/starter stand noticed it. No debris flag. This strip as everyone running after it saw was huge and went right under the starter stand. I pulled in and told the pit marshalls who seemed thoroughly confused that there was that much oil on track. We had one major crash the coincided with the oil right at pit entrance that eventually caused the session ot be ended although pretty much everyone had come in due to the oil. Noone ever mentioned seeing a debris flag.
Not the best showing by F&C in my opinion. I appreciate what they do but there were some pretty fundamental things that were screwed up.
Flyinglizard
New member
Maybe the GCR should state the once the checker flag is out, it can not be retracted. Assistant starter responsiblity should include this rule, along with keeping track of the leader. Mistakes can be made. The Starter should have enough help to know the leader.
IMHO. MM
IMHO. MM
tac911t
New member
Being a flagger and a driver. "Starters" work the Start/Finish stand. They are a seperate speciality from F&C (GCR Sec 5.8). Not saying that F&C do not make mistakes, but I do want to be clear on the source of the mistake.
Sorry, my fault for the lack of distinction.
If the officials will admit they didn't have official results at the track a 'late' protest will probably be accepted. Any ruling by the SOM at the track should open the door to an appeal, though even reasonalbe appeals often seemed to be tossed if there is no new evidence.
We had and ECR at Sebring a few years ago that only ran about 20 of the scheduled 90 minutes (stopped for lightening and late day finish). The officials all went into hiding, and no results could be found - we went home. Several weeks later rediculous results were posted on the web and the head SOM denies our protest because it's too late (no appeal allowed for same reason). That same steward was found backdating paperwork in a recent COA ruling. I still think of that guy as a friend, but that sure seems to look bad for those running the show.
Gary Gentry
New member
Let there be no doubt, the NC Region (and the people that comprise it) is top-notch. Some of those people are the best in the country at what they do as volunteers. I am sure there is and has been much discussion and review taking place between officials, specialties, etc.. As I have stated on this subject in this forum, anyone/everyone makes a mistake now and again. Far be it from me to call out the color of the kettle or point fingers or cast blame. I, personally, am waaay beyond any initial error and look only toward a fair result.
It has been suggested to me, outside of this forum, that there may be little or no basis for a protest/appeal. Let me state as succinctly as I am able, what might/should be considered such a basis.
A car competes in an entire race in the 1st overall in-class position and is ultimately shown in the Official Results (released approx. 1 week later) as having finished in 2nd in-class position and with that or similar scenario having been applied not only to one class but to multiple classes. Should that form the basis of a well-founded protest/appeal? Should such a protest/appeal be entertained/accepted by race and/or national officials?
Gary Gentry
New member
Hey Jeff,
I have not, as an "involved competitor" or as of this time, received any notification that any changes have been made to the erroneous Official results. I am, however, optimistic.
RacerBill
New member
Pardon the thread hijack, but........while it is true that there are seperate specilties for F&C and Starter, once the starter's duties at the start of a race are done, and until all the cars are off the track at the end of a race, the Starters stand becomes a flag station. We are equiped with all the same flags as a normal flag station, we are on the same network (at least at Mid-Ohio) as the flag stations, we respond to course checks just as a flag station. Starters don't just start a race. They should be and generally are trained in the meaning and usage of all the flags. The two specialties just have a few different responsibilities.
Sounds like everything got worked out, which is the best we all hoped for.
Hotshoe
New member
Hey Fellas,
...... Care to share with us what got "fixed" or "worked out" . As far as we know things are still the same........
....... Just thought I would ask......
seckerich
New member
We all need to remember that the region is not the one responsible for this screwup. They are assigned stewards for their races. The CCPS steward made the right call and was overturned. From conversations I have had today with officials I trust it looks like the right thing will be done. At the time of the ruling by the SOM they did not have a complete picture of all the events involved. Lets give them a chance now to fix this mess.
happyjap
New member
No conspiracy.
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sure hate to see all the attempts to make this a conspiracy against any series, organization or person. I was at the Comp. Board meeting when this schedule was established and no one there had a negative attitude about CCPS. There was, however, a lot of manipulation of the day's schedule layed out in 5 minute increments to allow for rules, back to back classes and the general comfort of all competitors – you might not imagine how complicated that is. I thought it was all simple until I became a Board member and sat in on these meetings. You will never know how dedicated these people are and how little room there is for a conspiracy. These people worked extremely hard to fit 4 races into one weekend and I left that meeting with the feeling that there would be no way you could schedule 4 races in a 2 day weekend without having some kind of conflict to my race program. The result is that I raced what I was comfortable with, didn't race the others and didn't complain. I don't think any conspiracy caused this race to be last and I don't think CCPS is always last.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]This problem was caused by a simple administration error, caused by, again the most devoted and hard working volunteers you can find. An error, not a conspiracy. I, as a racer, am not bothered by a simple error like this at all. If I didn't make any errors I would probably win some races, but I do make errors. This is not a pro series – if you want error free administration and no volunteer help you should go pro racing. Very little that happens at these races, if no one gets hurt, effects life as we know it. This is for fun.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The race steward made an announcement in impound after the race that revealed the error and his resolution. His decision made since to me and I think most others, because no one reacted negatively at the time. After that is when things went wrong. A protest was filed by a competitor that caused review of the GCR rules that apply and the Stewards decision was changed. That change is what made this problem. No other circumstances apply. No conspiracy was in play. If you want to change the future results of races like this, its the GCR that may need to be changed, or more reasonable interpretations of that document. This decision certainly effects the safety of all concerned for future races. If the Steward said the things he's quoted as saying, the safe standards of racing pounded into us as drivers for so many years is in question. I hope that steward thinks about his decision and the many ways the GCR can be interpreted.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sure hate to see all the attempts to make this a conspiracy against any series, organization or person. I was at the Comp. Board meeting when this schedule was established and no one there had a negative attitude about CCPS. There was, however, a lot of manipulation of the day's schedule layed out in 5 minute increments to allow for rules, back to back classes and the general comfort of all competitors – you might not imagine how complicated that is. I thought it was all simple until I became a Board member and sat in on these meetings. You will never know how dedicated these people are and how little room there is for a conspiracy. These people worked extremely hard to fit 4 races into one weekend and I left that meeting with the feeling that there would be no way you could schedule 4 races in a 2 day weekend without having some kind of conflict to my race program. The result is that I raced what I was comfortable with, didn't race the others and didn't complain. I don't think any conspiracy caused this race to be last and I don't think CCPS is always last.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]This problem was caused by a simple administration error, caused by, again the most devoted and hard working volunteers you can find. An error, not a conspiracy. I, as a racer, am not bothered by a simple error like this at all. If I didn't make any errors I would probably win some races, but I do make errors. This is not a pro series – if you want error free administration and no volunteer help you should go pro racing. Very little that happens at these races, if no one gets hurt, effects life as we know it. This is for fun.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The race steward made an announcement in impound after the race that revealed the error and his resolution. His decision made since to me and I think most others, because no one reacted negatively at the time. After that is when things went wrong. A protest was filed by a competitor that caused review of the GCR rules that apply and the Stewards decision was changed. That change is what made this problem. No other circumstances apply. No conspiracy was in play. If you want to change the future results of races like this, its the GCR that may need to be changed, or more reasonable interpretations of that document. This decision certainly effects the safety of all concerned for future races. If the Steward said the things he's quoted as saying, the safe standards of racing pounded into us as drivers for so many years is in question. I hope that steward thinks about his decision and the many ways the GCR can be interpreted.[/FONT]
Just want to clarify something here -
The decision on the protest, that was filed after the Chief Steward's decision, came from the "Stewards of the Meet" (SOM), not a "Steward of the Meet". Plural, not singular. The SOM's are a group of Stewards...an actual committee...who are not involved in any of the "operational" things going on all weekend...they're just there to serve as an "impartial" court.
While the SOMs discuss the facts, listen to competitors / officials and consult the GCR, they shouldn't make their decision outside of the rules in the GCR. They may come to a decision about "gray" areas, but if there is any hard language in the GCR, they're kinda sorta obligated to follow those rules. If a protestee is still unhappy with a decision of the SOM's, they can appeal to the national Court of Appeals (COA)...that's all that really fun stuff to read in Fastrack every month.
Lots of times, a SOM committee will come to a decision, but actually tell someone involved in a protest that they should file an appeal to the national COA, because the SOM's feel that there IS a legitimate reason to appeal. I've been an SOM where the committee came to decision "X", but told the competitor that they REALLY SHOULD APPEAL to the national COA, because "Y" might really be the better answer, based on a broader picture.
Confused about the issues and protests at VIR ("who" did "what" to "who", and "when ?), but it sounds like some of you guys were encouraged to protest. In my mind, that's a pretty cool thing.
The decision on the protest, that was filed after the Chief Steward's decision, came from the "Stewards of the Meet" (SOM), not a "Steward of the Meet". Plural, not singular. The SOM's are a group of Stewards...an actual committee...who are not involved in any of the "operational" things going on all weekend...they're just there to serve as an "impartial" court.
While the SOMs discuss the facts, listen to competitors / officials and consult the GCR, they shouldn't make their decision outside of the rules in the GCR. They may come to a decision about "gray" areas, but if there is any hard language in the GCR, they're kinda sorta obligated to follow those rules. If a protestee is still unhappy with a decision of the SOM's, they can appeal to the national Court of Appeals (COA)...that's all that really fun stuff to read in Fastrack every month.
Lots of times, a SOM committee will come to a decision, but actually tell someone involved in a protest that they should file an appeal to the national COA, because the SOM's feel that there IS a legitimate reason to appeal. I've been an SOM where the committee came to decision "X", but told the competitor that they REALLY SHOULD APPEAL to the national COA, because "Y" might really be the better answer, based on a broader picture.
Confused about the issues and protests at VIR ("who" did "what" to "who", and "when ?), but it sounds like some of you guys were encouraged to protest. In my mind, that's a pretty cool thing.
seckerich
New member
When there is more than one option that can be backed by the GCR what is the best choice? Split hairs and go with the wrong but justifiable decision and urge an appeal, or make the right decision in the first place and let that be appealed? Seems pretty simple now doesn't it? There is a higher level of transparency needed for this particular race because it was part of a money paying series. Not hanging the SOM for this just yet.
And I feel your pain on the race schedule planning, damn what an eye opening experience my first time as race chair. A whole new level of respect for those that volunteer for this madness.
And I feel your pain on the race schedule planning, damn what an eye opening experience my first time as race chair. A whole new level of respect for those that volunteer for this madness.
JeffYoung
New member
Well, I am most certainly guilty of jumping the gun here, and my apologies on that.
If I wasn't clear in later posts, NCR is the best.
In any event, my initial reacion was wrong, and I'll leave it up as a reminder not do that again.
Sorry Rex.
Jeff
If I wasn't clear in later posts, NCR is the best.
In any event, my initial reacion was wrong, and I'll leave it up as a reminder not do that again.
Sorry Rex.
Jeff