Diesel in IT

Conover said:
So, the basic allowances for a diesel in IT assuming it is a turbo.

Open exhaust south of the turbo outlet
Open intake north of the turbo inlet
That's it, no other allowance for a Turbo diesel engine. Everything else stock, even the ECU. All other IT prep and safety rules apply.
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Here's what I think:

1) Same allowances as non-turbos. If stock ECUs cannot be policied on normally aspirated cars, then they can't be policied on turbos.

2) You can't legislate max boost, as it is an effect of some things, not a modified part. It cannot be measured.

3) Use a TIR to make the horsepower output predictable. Making a big assumption there, I have a lot to learn.

4) Assign weights based on that predictable horsepower and our class' power-to-weight ratio targets, same as any other car.

5) Turbo diesels would be allowed too. They would probably get a torque adder like any other high torque motor. Diesel non-turbos could be classed right now, except that I'm not aware of any that are worth classing.
 
Conover said:
Here's an idea.

Leave the rules basically the same, open ECU and etc. figure out what kind of power you'd end up with, then class it. 1.9L TDI in ITS? could be kinda fun. .
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Interesting angle. I like it. Process the cars as the current rules sit, with much bigger process power gain. The only issue is that some gasser turbos will be left without a class, or at obscene weights.
 
Cameron, if I were on the ITAC, I'd be discussing this with an open mind. Rotaries have their own ruleset, so the precedent is there to have unique rules based on engine genre.

The Jetta TDI Cup cars are pretty close to IT rules setupwise, and I'm pretty sure they are running faster than ITS times. I always wondered what they'd sound like with an open exhaust.
 
lateapex911 said:
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The Jetta TDI Cup cars are pretty close to IT rules setupwise, and I'm pretty sure they are running faster than ITS times. I always wondered what they'd sound like with an open exhaust.
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Just to be a smartass since its a hot topic as of late... TDI cars use ABS. And they have massive Audi TT brakes. That's about all I know about them. I think an IT racer here races one that could fill us in more.

And ya I bet they would sound cool!

Stephen
 
THey were slightly quicker (1-2 seconds, but not under the old ITS track record by an unrestricted 325) than us I think.

My understanding was the cars had good brakes, so-so tires and ok suspensino.

Any power upgrades to the 140 hp. mill? It has a lot of torque but down on peak power obviously.....

I'd be in favor of N/A diesels in IT now, and I do think we have to figure out some way to deal with forced induction at some point.
 
I THINK the Cup cars use a "Euro tune" or some such mumbo jumbo. They hem and haw a bit when you ask them, but it's not a US stock power curve.

The suspension has been lowered and the dampers are custom and roll stiffness has been increased, all rather IT-ish. I still think they are underdamped, but that's just to my eye.
 
lateapex911 said:
Cameron, if I were on the ITAC, I'd be discussing this with an open mind. Rotaries have their own ruleset, so the precedent is there to have unique rules based on engine genre.

The Jetta TDI Cup cars are pretty close to IT rules setupwise, and I'm pretty sure they are running faster than ITS times. I always wondered what they'd sound like with an open exhaust.
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Jake,

I think the point about the rotary engines is a valid one. Playing devil's advocate on it though, you can say that you were really only dealing w/ 1 motor (3 variations), so it was a lot easier to draw a box around. Introducing diesels and turbo diesels would have multiple engines from multiple marques, across a broad range of technology (think 80's Audi or Mercedes turbo diesel vs. a modern VW TDI).

I personally like the idea. Could definitely play the green angle if you run bio-diesel. Wow, think about that one, you have a few bio-diesel powered cars running, and the entire paddock would smell like a bag of french fries! :D

On a side note, didn't the Jetta TDI cup cars get classified in T3 or something?

Back to Jake's point, I think you can use the rotary precedent to put greater restrictions on a car just because it has a diesel power plant (or a turbo).
 
2009 Jetta TDI in SSC. And to confuse the subject even more, they list two gear sets which leaves me to to believe that the second set is for the automatic transmission. So when this car becomes eligible for IT, what about no turbos or automatics allowed in IT?
 
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Ralf said:
2009 Jetta TDI in SSC. And to confuse the subject even more, they list two gear sets which leaves me to to believe that the second set is for the automatic transmission. So when this car becomes eligible for IT, what about no turbos or automatics allowed in IT?
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Sounds like we could be running into this issue sooner than we might think.

Some good suggestions here. I like the idea of a TDi in ITS. I'm not sure that grouping all forced induction cars together makes sense in terms of rules, I think diesel might be enough different that it needs some specific consideration. I do hope that fuels are open for diesel.
 
Ralf said:
2009 Jetta TDI in SSC. And to confuse the subject even more, they list two gear sets which leaves me to to believe that the second set is for the automatic transmission. So when this car becomes eligible for IT, what about no turbos or automatics allowed in IT?
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Manual and DSG tranny. The DSG has an automatic mode, but its not a torque-converter "slushbox" automatic.

Is the IT ban on automatics philosophical ("real drivers drive the car") or practical ("too easy to cheat up an automatic" (shift kit))?
 
Rud said:
Manual and DSG tranny. The DSG has an automatic mode, but its not a torque-converter "slushbox" automatic.

Is the IT ban on automatics philosophical ("real drivers drive the car") or practical ("too easy to cheat up an automatic" (shift kit))?
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Gee I don't know anyone that can shift a trasmission in milliseconds....
 
Greg Amy said:
I can...!!!

...but in a lot more milliseconds than a DSG can.

Hey, you started it... ;)
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If you can do it in less than 10 ms then I'm impressed. If you can do it with loosey goosey rubber motor and transmission mounts then you sir are a machine :smilie_pokal:

Conover,

If you really want to race a TDi, why don't you start a spec-TDi class? Then you wouldn't have to worry about being over weight untill the power levels figured out, you could even spec a single coilover package and get a better deal on them.
 
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How about doing what SM did? Unless my memory is off (it could be), they ran the SM package on some cars in IT, until they gathered support / data.
Could you build an ITE TDi and run it, gathering data on speed, power, etc... (Granted, that would only be one sample amongst the numerous (?) makes/ models of oil-burners that could be classifieds...
 
Based on watching the races, the TDi Cup cars will get faster with better shock engineering and better tires for sure.

Not sure how the enforcement would work out, but IMO classing them in the right IT bucket, with the only allowed changes from the current spec being tires, brake pads, spring rates, shocks and anti-roll bars sounds reasonable.

Who cares if they are already headed for STU or STL, lots of cars can race in more than one category.
 
Rud said:
That's certainly one reason to ban DSG, but that doesn't answer my question about why automatics were originally banned. :)
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Can't say why automatics are banned, but per the GCR, DSG is not an automatic - so it would be legal now if any listed car had it available.
 
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