Diff Coolers

[StephenB]

Diff coolers would be OK if they were limited to 5 psi or less circulating pumps. Anything else opens big can of worms that Kirk sees.

The rear gears on the GA RX8's would die very quickly before we went to the diff and trans coolers with low pressure circulating pumps. One ITR guy changes out to run SCCA sprints but will not run the longer races at $2500 per weekend for gears. No cover mods needed, just in the fill and out the drain plug.

Steve,

This is for my RX8 with a Grand-AM rear end. Do you happen to know the temperature that is acceptable before they do die? How long before you guys started seeing failures? Was it length of time on track per session, or time on track total? Did changing the diff oil more frequently help... is it needed every session, weeknd, or season? Do you have any suggestions on the best Diff fluid that I should use?

Stephen

PS: I TOTALLY agree that the allowance of a diff coller would allow me to have a competitive advantage over others simply by allowing me to run this rear end safely without the gamble I am going to take. This is why I asked if it was within what others thought was the philosophy of the class. We are allowed to do anything to the rear end which is within the philosophy of the class, this allowance just makes those modifications we are allowed to do more reliable.

Thanks for everyones opinions.

 

[JoshS]

We are allowed to do anything to the rear end which is within the philosophy of the class, this allowance just makes those modifications we are allowed to do more reliable.

Who said you "are allowed to do anything to the rear end?" That's not true. 9.1.3.D.4 lists the only modifications that can be made to the final drive. If you could do "anything", it would say so. But it doesn't. It says that you can change the final drive ratio, and that you can replace the differential. You can't do anything else, it's that simple.

The philosophy of the class is limited modifications, and moreso, only limited modifications, only those listed. It is NOT the philosophy of the class to find unlisted modifications that are somehow similar to those listed, and claim that those are (or ought to be) legal too.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

if we add open fluid coolers, I want the evap system and power steering to be allowed for removal to facilitate their instalation.

HA! Oil coolers and radiators are almost free now so that's moot.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Who said you "are allowed to do anything to the rear end?" That's not true. 9.1.3.D.4 lists the only modifications that can be made to the final drive. If you could do "anything", it would say so. But it doesn't. It says that you can change the final drive ratio, and that you can replace the differential. You can't do anything else, it's that simple.

The philosophy of the class is limited modifications, and moreso, only limited modifications, only those listed. It is NOT the philosophy of the class to find unlisted modifications that are somehow similar to those listed, and claim that those are (or ought to be) legal too.

But I say that when you are allowed to upgrade something like an engine (oil coolers and bigger radiators) and allow R&P's to be free AND limit to a stock case, allowing a fluid cooler there is certainly in line practically and philisophically.

In the same vein, I say no to tranny coolers because we aren't allowed to upgrade the units in any way.

 

[StephenB]

Who said you "are allowed to do anything to the rear end?" That's not true. 9.1.3.D.4 lists the only modifications that can be made to the final drive. If you could do "anything", it would say so. But it doesn't. It says that you can change the final drive ratio, and that you can replace the differential. You can't do anything else, it's that simple.

So this is one thing I hate about typing and the internet... I apologize that you mis-understood my intention when I was typing. When I said "anything" I wasn't really thinking of things outside of those items listed. To me those are the only things I could think of that would normally be done. When typing I meant changing it to any final drive ratio (And/Or limitied/welded diff) which gives the largest competitive advantage of anything I can think of that you can do to the rear end componant. I am NO expert and I was thinking just these simple things that we can do that gain a LOT of competitive advantage already. I never intended for this topic to involve crazy wild things.

The philosophy of the class is limited modifications, and moreso, only limited modifications, only those listed. It is NOT the philosophy of the class to find unlisted modifications that are somehow similar to those listed, and claim that those are (or ought to be) legal too.

If your trying to get in any type of pissing contest leave this thread now, I am NOT willing to argue. Please read the first post I posted again and understand I wanted to know how others felt. I have never said that I am claiming anything should be legal, I was just curious what others thought. To be honest if the search function found the other thread that is attached in the begining I never would have asked for anyones opinion.

"What are you thoughts about allowing Rear End Diff Coolers into IT? To far of a stretch based on the philosphy of IT? If I do run one can I disconnect it when running IT events or would that still be considered a no no just having it part of the car.

Interested in what you think..."

Stephen

 

[Knestis]

... I never intended for this topic to involve crazy wild things.

Behold to the power of rules creep! Shazzam!

Seriously though, this IS how it works. If someone thinks this is an appropriate allowance, propose the change and let the system hash it out. It's not currently allowed, but that won't stop the driving motivators behind the inevitable force that moves rule mountains.

K

 

[Chip42]

HA! Oil coolers and radiators are almost free now so that's moot.

so? This has nothing to do with radiators and oil coolers other than *maybe* precedent. what if want to add my theoretical diff cooler where my evap purge assembly (under trunk of a lot of newer cars) or my canister is?

In the same vein, I say no to tranny coolers because we aren't allowed to upgrade the units in any way.

transaxle?

I'm not actually arguing for anything - like I said I don't see diff coolers as being outside of the philosophy, just currently not legal and without enough evidence to convince me that they ought to be.

 

[JoshS]

If your trying to get in any type of pissing contest leave this thread now, I am NOT willing to argue. Please read the first post I posted again and understand I wanted to know how others felt. I have never said that I am claiming anything should be legal, I was just curious what others thought.

Stephen, no pissing contest intended, that's really not my style either. Sorry it came across that way. Your first post was great (and I guess it's obvious that I think a proposal like that is unnecessary rules creep), I was responding to what I interpreted as the notion that since other allowances are allowed for the rear end, then it makes sense to take it a little bit further to allow people to make everything of those other allowances that they could be. I guess you didn't mean that, so, my bad.

But, others definitely feel that way, I hear it all the time. That thought is analogous to saying that since we are allowed to run sticky tires, we should allow [insert your reliability fix here] because the chassis isn't up to racing on those sticky tires.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

what if want to add my theoretical diff cooler where my evap purge assembly (under trunk of a lot of newer cars) or my canister is?

Just because you want to doesn't mean you need to.

I'm not actually arguing for anything - like I said I don't see diff coolers as being outside of the philosophy, just currently not legal and without enough evidence to convince me that they ought to be.

I am just making a point that diff coolers are most certainly within the philiosophy and are congruent with the allowances already in the ITCS.

 

[seckerich]

Steve,

This is for my RX8 with a Grand-AM rear end. Do you happen to know the temperature that is acceptable before they do die? How long before you guys started seeing failures? Was it length of time on track per session, or time on track total? Did changing the diff oil more frequently help... is it needed every session, weeknd, or season? Do you have any suggestions on the best Diff fluid that I should use?

Stephen

PS: I TOTALLY agree that the allowance of a diff coller would allow me to have a competitive advantage over others simply by allowing me to run this rear end safely without the gamble I am going to take. This is why I asked if it was within what others thought was the philosophy of the class. We are allowed to do anything to the rear end which is within the philosophy of the class, this allowance just makes those modifications we are allowed to do more reliable.

Thanks for everyones opinions.

I think what you will find Stephen is that a lot of the diff temp problems in GA were due to the restriction that the stock LS unit be used. They suck and generate quite a bit of heat. The 5.12 is still very stressed in these cars and even more so than the RX7 because of the 9000+ revs that see over 10,000 rpm on the drive shaft. I drop the fluid every race weekend with the RX7 and after practice, before the race at tracks like CMP. Get the gear rem finished if it is not already and buy fluid in 5 gallon buckets to save money. I have always run Mobile 1 75/90 in the RX7 with no failures even in a 13 hour race. The Castrol we run in the GA cars was also very good. If you put AN caps on the diff cooler outlets on that GA setup I doubt anyone will care that you have an extra drain hole.

 

[Chip42]

Just because you want to doesn't mean you need to.

exactly

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

exactly

But you are using the outlandish to squash a perfectly legitimate - and congruent - allowance. We are allowed to mod the internals, why not allow us to cool it?

FWIW: I have no need for a diff cooler.

 

[Chip42]

But you are using the outlandish to squash a perfectly legitimate - and congruent - allowance. We are allowed to mod the internals, why not allow us to cool it?

FWIW: I have no need for a diff cooler.

no, I was using an outlandish argument in an attempt to get to the statement you made about want =/= need and to try and illustrate the creep. the latter wasn't so effective.

like I said, I have no position for or against trans and diff coolers, but I don't think they are necessarily outside of the philosophy. I will add that if I were to argue for one, I would argue for both trans and diff on account of the unbalance of the rule granted to transaxles if it were awarded only to diffs

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

no, I was using an outlandish argument in an attempt to get to the statement you made about want =/= need and to try and illustrate the creep. the latter wasn't so effective.

I knew what you were driving at but it wasn't a good example to go to that extreme in a legit request like this.

like I said, I have no position for or against trans and diff coolers, but I don't think they are necessarily outside of the philosophy. I will add that if I were to argue for one, I would argue for both trans and diff on account of the unbalance of the rule granted to transaxles if it were awarded only to diffs

A fair position and one that would have to be considered by the CRB in both transaxle and FWD cases.

 

[Chip42]

I knew what you were driving at but it wasn't a good example to go to that extreme in a legit request like this.

The request is legitimate, I agree. but I don't think that my statement was THAT outlandish. sure the "reason" I implied was facilitation of instalation, and that is intentionally absurd, but I think that removal of the evap system in particular is within the class philosophy and the philosophy of the SCCA comp rules in general. and it certainly would help instalation of other "legitimate" requests

power steering is one of those things I see significant IT philosophical dischord with as 2 cars with the same factory hp rating and same engine might have multiple spec lines, one with and one without the power steering, and show the same process weight, even though PS can sap a significant amount, particularly from smaller motors.

a good example is the honda civic DX 92-95, ITB: 4door and coupe came WITH PS, no option. 3 dr came without. same weight, same engine, 3 spec lines (by body style). this is correct according to the process, as the thing assumes a motor's gains, but if the losses associated with non-removable items are not accounted for by the factory then they are not accounted for by the process. but in this case, seperate spec lines breed unmatched cars. Does this fall under warts and all? could it be argued that the 3-box cars have advantages over the 2 box hatch? sure. but there is fundamental process dischord based on the factory's failure to list seperate hp numbers by equipment (an oversight in SAE net rules). by the same token, single spec cars that are currently well-processed could become too fast by such an allowance.

So I'm not convinced there is need for or that it is a good Idea too eliminate PS, but it is a legitimate request. I feel the same way about diff coolers.

 

[Knestis]

Your Civic DX example is a good one but that's a spec-line problem, not a process problem. The ITAC should make a decision re: whether derivatives belong on the same spec line - thereby authorizing update/backdates among them - or on different lines. If the answer is "different lines," then it does become a warts-and-all issue.

I'm not terribly confident that the various Hondae spec-line placements are the result of comprehensive planning and decision making, so it might deserve review.

K

 

[Chip42]

Your Civic DX example is a good one but that's a spec-line problem, not a process problem. The ITAC should make a decision re: whether derivatives belong on the same spec line - thereby authorizing update/backdates among them - or on different lines. If the answer is "different lines," then it does become a warts-and-all issue.

I'm not terribly confident that the various Hondae spec-line placements are the result of comprehensive planning and decision making, so it might deserve review.

K

actually, they were split into multiple lines based on a letter I wrote asking for clarification of UD/BD, particularly with regard to power steering, and if it is intended to be per spec line or per 100% as delivered for sale in the USA. between wheelbase, body style, and power steering, you get 3 spec lines for the civic DX.

my analogues at that time were the Ford Escort GT/LX-E in ITA (same cars under IT perspective, different body types) and the Honda Accord LXi/SEi in ITB (SEi is 2dr only, rear disks, LXi is 2 or 3dr, drum rears. otherwise they are identical to IT rules). I supposed that either we merge everything into one line (escort) or split based on a single feature crossing body types into a combination never sold in the US (accord). they chose option B.

 

[JoshS]

I supposed that either we merge everything into one line (escort) or split based on a single feature crossing body types into a combination never sold in the US (accord). they chose option B.

That's right, it was an explicit decision.

 

[StephenB]

Yaya old thread revival but figured I wouldn't create a new one for no reason. I am adding in a cooler that I can easily remove when running in ITR. I found this unit at summit racing and it seems easy and simple with a nice shroud but much cheaper than the fluidlyne. I was going to go with a mocal but not sure what fan to go with it and then I would have to fab up a shroud to go with it...

Griffin all in one cooler with fan http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gri-cxu-00002/overview/

Mocal I was also considering. http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/4992/Mocal_Oil_Coolers2

Thoughts? Other than illegal for ITR.

 

[MMiskoe]

You think you need the fan? Seems that getting the oil out of the lump and through the cooler would be quite a benefit even if the cooler didn't have great airflow. 10 years ago I remember seeing Winston cup cars that had the cooler up near the rear axle, a small amount of ducting, but no fan. I'll be curious how other people view this, but I suspect airflow from the car's motion will render any fan an impediment once over about 50 mph.

What will you use for a circulation pump?

FWIW I found when doing engine oil coolers the cost of the cooler could get eclipsed by the cost of the fittings and hose to plumb it all up. Them AN fittings ain't cheap.