Dumb bodyshell rule

WOW, having read this whole thread, I am stunned to see many of you who were very opposed to "rules creep" in the last few years now endorse this proposal, or at least consider it. It seems to me that if you choose to race a particular car, it's scarcity should be a determining factor when you choose to build/race it. I have no dog in this hunt one way or another. But it seems to me that we are taking a giant step (rather than just "creeping along") in IT rule allowances.
 
Originally posted by Tristan Smith@Nov 11 2005, 08:41 PM
WOW, having read this whole thread, I am stunned to see many of you who were very opposed to "rules creep" in the last few years now endorse this proposal, or at least consider it. It seems to me that if you choose to race a particular car, it's scarcity should be a determining factor when you choose to build/race it. I have no dog in this hunt one way or another. But it seems to me that we are taking a giant step (rather than just "creeping along") in IT rule allowances.
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Ditto - I was surprised but pleasantly surprised. When I read the title of that topic I though "Ahhhhhh hell, here we go!". I figured it'd end up sort of like the wiring harness argument that went off eariler into rules nerdom or a slugfest topic like "More weight for BMWs".

R
 
whatever happened to that proposal? Did Kirk send it off? I didn't see it pop up anywhere for membership input - or did I miss it?

thanks
 
It went in - I think - on or about 28 December. Since it's not an actual email message, there's no real record of when it went out, and Bauer's reply doesn't indicate which request is which.

K
 
Back from the dead...

March VastCrack - NOT RECOMMENDED 2. IT – Amend the ITCS to eliminate the “create a model” prohibition and “two VIN numbers requirement clauses (Knestis). Creating a non-existent model is inconsistent with the class philosophy.

That's what I get for trying for internal conisistency, trying to address both the VIN rule and what was repeatedly presented as the root issue (the 'create a model' thing). Someone else needs to do the next request but, since the response is grounded in the 'model' issue, just request that the VIN requirement clause go away.

The arguments against eliminating the DBR (at least those presented) are spurious and if we keep this in the daylight, more people will come to understand that it's based on flawed thinking and we can get it fixed.

K
 
I already replied to the CRB on the issue. Referenced their response to your request, and walked through the whole logic of why it changes nothing relative to creating a model.
 
'Creating a model' may be a bit to simplistic. The CRB is also talking about creating things that didn't exist. Take my Miata for example. The 1.6 cars are between 50-150lbs lighter than the 1.8 cars. Right now, I add 50lbs of ballast to make 2380 with 1-2 gallons of gas and my 200lb frame.

I could build a car that could then be as much as 200lbs under minumum. This would encourage hidden ballast and an almost perfectly balanced car that potentially would outperform it's 'normally built using a 1.8 chassis' brother. Are there implications of horribly weighted FWD cars?

This small example is just one we know about. What about the ones we don't? The fear is the creation of the unknown.

Maybe the fear from unintended conciquenses is too great here but does the upside outweigh the unknown? Kirk doesn't think so, I am undecided. Who else?
 
And here lies the problem. Kirk's position is that if the shells are identical the vin rule is dumb. Andy's Miata example uses a car that looks the same being from a different year there is a weight difference. In order to do away with the Vin requirement I think we need to determine what a identical shell is.

Would the problem be solved if the shell is the proper year according to the spec line even if the vin if for a different “model”. I would guess that would eliminate the evolutionary changes the the shell go through in different years.
 
Using a 1.6 shell for a 1.8 Miata is illegal whether the VIN rule exists or not because it is not the same shell. Therefore the argument that some cars have different shells for different driveline configurations has nothing to do with removing the VIN requirement. In that particular case you do in fact have to have the correct VIN simply because it is the ONLY body shell that is correct for that model.

However in the case of a VW 8v versus a VW 16v shell, they are identical other than VIN (in some years only). Therefore there is no defensible reason to require that you only use the identical shell that has a specific number stamped into it.

I have yet to see an argument show me how changing this rule makes any new allowance in terms of the actual resulting car and it's performance.
 
Please explain the differences.[/b]
Taking a leap here, Andy, but your prior post implied there was a difference (that's certainly what I inferred). Dunno if that's what he's assuming as well.

You wrote "The 1.6 cars are between 50-150lbs lighter than the 1.8 cars." Can you explain why? Is it something inherent in the design, or something to do with the installed equipment? Can you legally make the 1.8 chassis the same weight as the 1.6 currently, but with more work? In other words, if we were to strip both cars down to "bodies in white", what would be the functional/technical/realistic difference?

If there is a difference, then the ITAC has a valid point (with, of course, keeping in mind Chris' point of it being illegal anyway). Then again, if the only difference in this example is it takes more work to get there, but it's technically possible, then it's a moot point and logically invalid as supporting evidence towards the purpose of rejecting Kirk's request.

We've asked this many, many times over the last Lord-knows-how-many-years when this topic comes up, and we've yet to have someone bring up an example where allowing alternate base chassis will result in an illegal car (assuming one has the intent of remaining legal; if they don't, no amount of rules is gonna stop it and it's probably being done right now anyway). We've talked VWs, Hondas, Nissans, Mazdas, ad nausea, and no one's come up with even one good example... - GA
 
I can help Andy out a bit I think.

Differences that I know of between a 1.6 roller and 1.8 roller with stock pieces.

1) suspension arms. Earlier cars have less reinforcement (boxing) of the suspension arms.
2) Subframes. The newer subframes have integrated places to bolt in braces that were not stock on the 1.6 cars.
3) Bracing. The 1.8 cars came stock with a body to rear subframe brace
4) air bags. The 1.8 cars have a passenger airbag...even though we're allowed to remove them, the additional brackets needed for mounting may make a difference.
5) rear end. The 1.8 rear end is bigger (7" vs. 6")
6) brakes. The 1.8 has bigger brakes

OK...., AFAIK, 1, 2, 3 are non issues since IIRC, 1&2 new items supersede the old ones. I know for my car when I ordered a new front subframe it came with extra holes (even if it's a 94 which already has bracing), and a new upper control arm has extra bracing in there. #3, for example, in SM the bracing is allowed to be added to the early cars, not sure about IT (makes for an interesting topic for those that cross-over between SM and ITA).

If you took a 1990 body, took subframes, suspension, rear end, everything off and do the same with a 1997 version, I'm not sure we'd see a lot of difference in weight to be honest.
 
Well, actually, there should be NO difference (in weight) if the swap was to be legal, right? (Once the optional items like sound deadening were removed.)

IF the later cars have stamped and spot welded bits the earlier cars don't, then it's no good, unless those bits are readily removable....and removed.

All bodies in white are anyway is an assemblage of stampings. With enough drilling and spot weld removing, you can get them down to the raw stamped bits. If those bits are the same from one version to the next, the only "part" that is different is the VIN stamping. Seems silly (to me) that we have to jack up the VIN just to slide a new body under it. (I've done it, but it sucked)
 
Honestly, I don't know that there is any difference in the shells themselves. I'll have to double check this to be sure but I think if I order body pieces from Mazda, it will not matter for which year car they are. Maybe Andy knows this for sure.
 
Just to clarify what I am talking about - it is the body shell itself. Not including subframes/suspension components/braces or whatever else may bolt to that shell. Those other components can already be interchanged IF they are factory delivered on the car you are building. If the body shell is the same with the only difference being the digits of the VIN, IMO it is the same for our application.

I wonder if some that are wary of this idea are thinking about it as swapping drivetrains between different versions of a given model. What we are really talking about is swapping shells - with all other items (drivetrain, suspension, accessories, reinforcements, brakes, etc) being correct for the race car you are building.
 
Antonio got most of it. And he is right in that when you put the 1.6 stuff on the 1.8 car (94-97) the weights will be similar. HOWEVER, within the SM community, even amongst 1.6 owners, there is as much as a 50-75 lbs difference in weight. It remains inexplicable. The early 1990 chassis (chassis only) is the right one to have. Take that plus the net gains (about 25lbs) and you have 100 less pounds.

How does this play out in the myriad of Honda and VW applications we have listed in the ITCS? Would it be possible to create 'better' cars than exist with the VIN rule followed?

IF the later cars have stamped and spot welded bits the earlier cars don't, then it's no good, unless those bits are readily removable....and removed.[/b]

And I assume everyone knows, down to this exacting detail, what came on, under and inside every iteration of every model of every car - right?
 
Would it be possible to create 'better' cars than exist with the VIN rule followed?[/b]
The same exact question we've asked a myriad of times over the years. No one has yet to come up with a reasonable example.

Your Miata example has come the closest. But, as baffling as it may seem, it implies to me that the chassis are the same and that the differences - perceived or otherwise - are likely in installed equipment. But it seems the chassis are more likely than not interchangeable.

And I assume everyone knows, down to this exacting detail, what came on, under and inside every iteration of every model of every car - right?[/b]
We each know about our own cars. But, what you're really asking is "...can all of us know all of the details of all cars, such that we would know when someone was cheating"?

The answer to that is, of course, "no". Certainly no more than we do about the mechanical equipment we're supposed to self-police. If a significant performance potential exists with a swapped chassis, we'd have no way to identify it, and in fact someone could be using that right now. Therefore, the current VIN rule is totally unenforceable, even less so than the proposed change.

I'll be redundant and say it again: no one has come up with even one reasonable example of where this proposed rule would provide a performance advantage and encourage cheating. And, no one has come up with how we could stop that cheating if it were being done today. This resistance to such a change is clearly becoming nothing more than entrenched ideals of "the way things have always been done", sprinkled with a touch of "it will be used to create a model that didn't exist". Yet, no one can provide examples to support this case. They rely on the entrenched existence of the rule with no logical way to support it, deferring to fear and the unknown to resist change.

Let's let these ideals whither away and change the rule to benefit the category as a whole.

I'll say it again, loud and clear, for the fourth or fifth time publicly on this forum: if I wrap that little egg into a little rounder ball, I'm going to replace that chassis with one from a easier-to-find hardtop Nissan NX1600. Well, actually, I'm going to remove each piece of the 1600, one by one, and install them in the NX2000, one by one. They are the same parts. This replacement cycle will happen to such a degree that all the parts, except the VIN plate, will be replaced, one by one.

And that's legal to the rules. It may LOOK like I'm taking all the 2000 mechanical parts out and installing them in a 1600 chassis, but I'm ACTUALLY doing is taking used identical 1600 parts and installing them on the 2000. Including the roof, floor pan, firewall, frame rails, rear body section...etc.

I challenge you to prove otherwise...
 
Antonio got most of it. And he is right in that when you put the 1.6 stuff on the 1.8 car (94-97) the weights will be similar. HOWEVER, within the SM community, even amongst 1.6 owners, there is as much as a 50-75 lbs difference in weight. It remains inexplicable. The early 1990 chassis (chassis only) is the right one to have. Take that plus the net gains (about 25lbs) and you have 100 less pounds.

[/b]

It is my theory that if you take the shell from the firewall back, and you replace the added bits and pieces from there forward with new pieces ordered from Mazda that you may get back that weight. I'm talking about torque boxes, inner fenders/rails, radiator support, etc. There are other differences in the transmissions...even between 94 and 97 transmissions. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone weighing just a pure shell with no powertrain in it. It may be a hassle but as a pure academic exercise, I may weigh a couple of shells.
 
We each know about our own cars. But, what you're really asking is "...can all of us know all of the details of all cars, such that we would know when someone was cheating"?

The answer to that is, of course, "no". Certainly no more than we do about the mechanical equipment we're supposed to self-police. If a significant performance potential exists with a swapped chassis, we'd have no way to identify it, and in fact someone could be using that right now. Therefore, the current VIN rule is totally unenforceable, even less so than the proposed change.[/b]

Well, I see good arguements on both sides, however, since nobody can know or understand the unintended concequences of this, why do it? I am only familiar with Miata's and RX-7's. These are mainstream cars where tons of them are on track. What about the hundreds of iterations of Honda's and VW's? What about the weird and rare stuff?

I'll be redundant and say it again: no one has come up with even one reasonable example of where this proposed rule would provide a performance advantage and encourage cheating. And, no one has come up with how we could stop that cheating if it were being done today. This resistance to such a change is clearly becoming nothing more than entrenched ideals of "the way things have always been done", sprinkled with a touch of "it will be used to create a model that didn't exist". Yet, no one can provide examples to support this case. They rely on the entrenched existence of the rule with no logical way to support it, deferring to fear and the unknown to resist change.[/b]

Well I gave you my example, and that is just what I know about. The fear is of the unknown. Just because YOUR car fits the mold doesn't mean everyone elses does.

Let's let these ideals whither away and change the rule to benefit the category as a whole.[/b]

This isn't your fathers ITAC. PLENTY has been changed over the past 3 years or so. The group is open to change, trust me. The fear is unintended concequenses balanced against a benefit...and the majority of the committee isn't seeing the needed balance. (Understand I am speaking in general for the committee in this instance, not neccessarily for myself).
 
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