E36 vs E46
- Thread starter Tom Donnelly
- Start date
dj10
New member
No, I really don't see a fine line there at all. Rules say repairs have to be exactly as it was before, unless you can produce the paperwork from the factory (e.g., TS
supporting it.It's really not that fine a line at all; suggesting otherwise is condoning that whole "twisted interpretation" mindset.
Another checkbox for condoning the mindset. If you accept that this kind of "repair" is legal after a failure, illustrate to me how you're going to be able to prove there was a failure in the first place...?
Nope, not a fine line at all. - GA
JeffYoung
New member
I read that whole tread again last night. I wasn't happy about it this stuff then, and not happy about it now, but it does appear there is a factory mandated repair that involves the welding of plates on the cracked areas. I am still concerned, as are you apparently, about a factory fix that improves performance/reliability although I am not sure that is illegal.
But I see their point. If there is a failure, you have to fix it. Welding is an acceptable means by which we all fix stress cracks.
So, if the minimum amount of factory approved welding is done to a fix, I don't see how that is not legal.
Thus it is a fine line between repair and reinforce. You can only do enough to fix, or what the factory TSB says you can do, and no more. Some of that stuff on the Autotechnic page was so far out of line as to not even be within the realm of discussion.
But I see their point. If there is a failure, you have to fix it. Welding is an acceptable means by which we all fix stress cracks.
So, if the minimum amount of factory approved welding is done to a fix, I don't see how that is not legal.
Thus it is a fine line between repair and reinforce. You can only do enough to fix, or what the factory TSB says you can do, and no more. Some of that stuff on the Autotechnic page was so far out of line as to not even be within the realm of discussion.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
I think what people are looking for is a copy of the official documentation from BMW that shows all the details on what to look for, what part numbers are required and how to fix the flaw. A true TSB with 'repair' terminology.
What some have become leary of is a proactive 'reinforcement'. Just because a BMW part number exists, doesn't mean it's a factory mandated repair. I think in general terms, we can all agree on that.
Knowing some of the guys who have done this, I am sure the documentation exists, but it would be nice to see it. This is something that could become specifically LEGAL on the spec line if someone was motivated with the proper docs.
What some have become leary of is a proactive 'reinforcement'. Just because a BMW part number exists, doesn't mean it's a factory mandated repair. I think in general terms, we can all agree on that.
Knowing some of the guys who have done this, I am sure the documentation exists, but it would be nice to see it. This is something that could become specifically LEGAL on the spec line if someone was motivated with the proper docs.
dj10
New member
From what I can read with GA's post, he wants to know if it was a true repair. If Greg did any welding to the body or subframe of his car, how would anyone know if it was a repair or a reinforcement? I use this only as an example. I'll bet that Marshall Lytle probably has the BMW part numbers for the reinforcement plates. As for the BMW documation of the repair, I'll look in the TIS for starts. Back to the proof, how can anyone prove anything unless no repairs are made without the expressed approval of the SCCA tech? You couldn't use photos because it could be someone elses car in the photo.
JoshS
New member
From the other thread, the part numbers are:
41-00-2-256-495
41-00-2-256-496
41-11-2-256-497
41-11-2-256-498
I looked these up in the ETK (okay, the online one, realoem), and they are listed only for the M3s (coupes, sedans, and convertibles), but not for any other E36s.
That doesn't mean that there isn't a service bulletin in the TIS though that recommends their use on a 325. I don't have the TIS handy, not since I switched computers, but I'd love for you to look it up.
Interestingly, the Z3s have a totally different rear suspension issue that still results in unibody tearing, but not at the subframe mounts. Although there are a few reinforcement kits available in the aftermarket, BMW has never issued any fix of any sort for it, or even acknowledged that the problem exists. So, I'm just waiting for it to happen, and when it does, I'll have to replace the whole trunk floor with new parts. Kinda sucks.
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dj10
New member
Thanks Josh.
robits325is
New member
BMW TIS 41 03 03 (025) Very well documented within BMW but nearly impossible to find outside the BMW network.
BMW Documentation
BMW Documentation
JoshS
New member
I don't get it.
1)That's a bulletin for an E46, not an E36.
2) It doesn't say to weld on a reinforcing plate from an M3.
robits325is
New member
I have an E-46 and that document was the first one I choose. That document is 9 pages and lists every item to use including a part number for rubber gloves to use while applying the finish undercoating. This repair is very common.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
But Rob, unless I'm mistaken we're discussing the E36, and the mystery factory repair. I think Autotecnic showed pictures of it on their site. So do you have that bulletin?
Just to follow up, Dan: yes. This has (obviously) been debated for years, and I've yet to see anyone come up with factory documentation specifically proving that BMW considers this to be a normal, every repair procedure on a non-M3 E36 chassis.
No one disagrees it's a wart on the car.
No one disagrees it's a good idea.
No one disagrees it fixes problems on the car.
No one disagrees it's a "performance advantage" in that it fixes a common flaw on the car.
However, no one's bothered to provide the proof that it's legal in Improved Touring. To do so would require the aforementioned factory-authorized documentation. Provide proof, we mumble "mea culpa" and shut up...
Ball's been in the BMW court for several years now... - GA
JoshS
New member
I see, I didn't understand that this was just the 1st page.
Here's the whole thing for anyone who wants to look:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=247442&d=1193718036
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5927869&postcount=23
But ...
This thread was about E36s, and the part numbers that are being used are different. I frankly think that this document allows for E46s to do this sort of reinforcement. But I see no allowance for it to be done to an E36, even after a failure.
robits325is
New member
BMW is VERY tight with this information.(E-36 and E-46) I was lucky enough to work within the BMW group for four years. A simple google search on BMW subframe class action suits will show a lot of information available through various law firms and customers alike. These TIS documents are not public information nor are they intended to be linked here. BMW has a team of attorneys that have been known for making mountains out of mole hills over much simpler issues such as BMW logos used without proper approvals. Needless to say I have access to this information but I can't afford the legal bills if it were to escalate to BMW corporate.
I have not needed to fix my E-46 yet but if I do I will unless someone here has a better solution other than order a body in white.
Can anyone offer a better way to fix a torn subframe or a ripped out shock mount?
Nobody else has had to weld something on their car? I can"t remember a weekend that Smarty wasnt under someones car welding for a case of Pabst.
I have not needed to fix my E-46 yet but if I do I will unless someone here has a better solution other than order a body in white.
Can anyone offer a better way to fix a torn subframe or a ripped out shock mount?
Nobody else has had to weld something on their car? I can"t remember a weekend that Smarty wasnt under someones car welding for a case of Pabst.
JoshS
New member
I think no one here would have an issue with you following these instructions for your E46. The rulebook says:
"All chassis/structural/electrical repair, if performed, shall be in concurrence with factory procedures, specifications, and dimensions. Unless specifically authorized by the manufacturer for repair or allowed by these rules, no reinforcement, i.e., seam welding, material addition, etc., is permitted."
Such a procedure, on your car, would be in concurrence with factory procedures, and would be specifically authorized by the manufacturer for repair. As long as your car was built before 2/00, I guess, since that's the limit of applicability of this bulletin.
But doing a similar thing on an E36, or reinforcing the trunk floor of a Z3 because they tear apart at the diff mount, wouldn't be legal without such a document.
BMW might not want these documents to circulate to the owner population, but as you know, most racers don't have "legitimate access" to them, and yet, the racing rules require us to have them in our possession. So, we're good at looking for them.
Z3_GoCar
New member
Josh, you've followed the Z3 trunk mount repair threads. Have you ever found any evidence that BMW even documents this much less has internal memo's for dealer service personel to access? I've long ago come to the conclusion that it either doesn't exist or is so closely held it might as well not exist. Unlike my employer, you can't file under the freedom of information act and get these kinds of proprietary reports. I'm sure it'd be easier to get Air Force reports on the fatigue life on an F-15 airframe than how the factory wants these repairs made.
I had the rear bracket to the muffler break off of my (street) Z3. That's like four spot welds can't hold the stock muffler for more than 89k miles? There's maybe double that many spot welds in the trunk holding the bracket for the off set differential mount. This is all that holds the differential from pulling away from the trunk. When it goes one would have to be really lucky not to wrap it into a pretzal, and just becaue there's not manual or paper trail we've got to throw it away, or go race E-Production
James