Enduro sup. reg. standardization?

[jimmyc]

Size of the pit lane - i.e. a roval or a 1960s-era road course? If you are dealing with 40-foot pit boxes rules don't need to be as strict as when dealing with Summit Point-sized boxes. In the former, staging equipment and crew is less dangerous than in the cramped confines of Summit Point.

What kind of barrier is there between the pitlane and the crew staging area? Is it a concrete wall (ala rovals/professional courses) that will keep burning fuel from getting into the staging area or is it a single strand of armco (see Summit Point) that would allow burning fuel to run into the area normally used for gridding cars (and where teams are staged for the enduro)?

We have managed to cram 70 cars into a pit lane that is very short and has very small pit boxes. And then with the same set of rules went and ran at places like daytona, Homestead ect with huge pit lanes and pit boxes.

As far as the barrier thing, whats your point? No matter WHAT your rules are people can still spill fuel and start a fire. Make fuel spills a BIG penalty, beyond that you can't do anything really.

You are trying to fix/make it hard for people to screw up. And you can't do that.

I have done more then 45 fuel stops with a regular old 5 gallon gas can never have spilt ANY fuel doing it. Yet dry break systems have been shown to fail and fires can start.

 

[MMiskoe]

If Topeka get's their hand in it we the racers might not like the result. What about having a list of standard items to be included in the sup's? Those writing the sup's can provide a clear set of rules would have a checklist to refer to. They might be different from the last race, but would at least cover all the bases.

People will make mistakes fueling no matter how good the system. Cripe, look at how many fires happen and fuel hoses get dragged down F1 pit lanes. And those guys are supposed to be the very best! There is no answer that will work across the board.

Greg - I've heard your light spacing comment before and usually you have good ideas on how to do stuff, but I think you're smoking on this one. Light spacing is only one part of the equation and would be difficult to engineer and enforce.

Matt

 

[jjjanos]

We have managed to cram 70 cars into a pit lane that is very short and has very small pit boxes. And then with the same set of rules went and ran at places like daytona, Homestead ect with huge pit lanes and pit boxes.

Exactly. The rules for the former were overkill for the latter. Therefore, there would be a reason to change the safety rules based on the venue.

As far as the barrier thing, whats your point? No matter WHAT your rules are people can still spill fuel and start a fire. Make fuel spills a BIG penalty, beyond that you can't do anything really.

A barrier that functions as a dam does not allow burning fuel to run into the non-traffic side of the pits. A barrier like Summit's does allow this. Rules that impose a sufficient level of safety at Pocono may not do that for Summit. Therefore, there would be a reasxon to change the safety rules based on the venue.

Moreover, the safety rules are not just to reduce the likelihood of a bad event. The safety rules need to mitigate the damage that occurs when there is a bad event. Using your logic, the penalty for rolling a car should be severe (and beyond destroying the car, say a 5-year suspension of license). With that penalty in place, we can do away with the requirement for rollbars because "... you can't do anything really."

You are trying to fix/make it hard for people to screw up. And you can't do that.

No - it's about mitigating the damage when they screw up. There's a reason why many professional series require EVERYONE in the pit boxes, on both sides of the wall, to be in nomex. If Topeka gets its hands on the rules, the should be prepared to put everyone in the hot pits in nomex because the legal types are going to demand it.

I have done more then 45 fuel stops with a regular old 5 gallon gas can never have spilt ANY fuel doing it. Yet dry break systems have been shown to fail and fires can start.

Point? I never said cans or dry break were better a/o safer. I said dry break systems tend to be quicker.

 

[krysdean]

enduro rules

We have been running Enduro's in SEDIV for several years and we have a set of rules specific to the ECR series that are applied accross the Divison. I am no implying that our rules should be the benchmark,but you are welcome to review them to see what has worked for us. Most of our enduro's are 90 minutes, but these rules work for the longer enduro's, including the 12 hour we used to do at Homestead. Again, I am not suggesting that the ECR rules should simply be adopted, but rather used as a tool to begin setting up a set of rules that you can live with.

Feel free to look them over at:

http://www.sedivecr.com/

Krys Dean

 

[callard]

Enduro rules genesis:
The Nelson Ledges Longest Day 24 hour rules were refined over 17 iterations.
The DC Region used these as the basis for their 1.5 then 4, 6 and 12 hour rules starting in 1993.
These DC rules were shared with New England Region as the basis for the NEDiv short enduros around 1998. These rules were also shared with Central Florida Region as the basis for their Longest Night 24 hour races at Moroso circa 1997 and with North Carolina Region as the basis for their 13 hour race a bit later. I am unsure how the west coast NASA 25 hour race rules evolved.
Each of these east coast Regions made some changes to the original rules set based on local conditions and sometimes personal preferences.
Ultimately, today an east coast team must have different execution strategies based on which race is entered under the differing rules sets. It's time to standardize the safety related rules and get them in the GCR (e.g. fire bottle pin in or pin out, grounding, clothing, fueling, etc.). These are the things that should be in the GCR. When and how to work on cars, how to time pit stops, how to equip cars, etc. should be left to the supps. They, for the most part, are already addressed by the individual series rules but there are some differences that should be standardized.
Regards,
Chuck

 

[jimmyc]

Exactly. The rules for the former were overkill for the latter. Therefore, there would be a reason to change the safety rules based on the venue.



A barrier that functions as a dam does not allow burning fuel to run into the non-traffic side of the pits. A barrier like Summit's does allow this. Rules that impose a sufficient level of safety at Pocono may not do that for Summit. Therefore, there would be a reasxon to change the safety rules based on the venue.

Moreover, the safety rules are not just to reduce the likelihood of a bad event. The safety rules need to mitigate the damage that occurs when there is a bad event. Using your logic, the penalty for rolling a car should be severe (and beyond destroying the car, say a 5-year suspension of license). With that penalty in place, we can do away with the requirement for rollbars because "... you can't do anything really."



No - it's about mitigating the damage when they screw up. There's a reason why many professional series require EVERYONE in the pit boxes, on both sides of the wall, to be in nomex. If Topeka gets its hands on the rules, the should be prepared to put everyone in the hot pits in nomex because the legal types are going to demand it.



Point? I never said cans or dry break were better a/o safer. I said dry break systems tend to be quicker.

No the rules weren't really written for either, the series i am speaking of is GARRA Koni Challenge.

Garra KC ONLY requires the people handling the fuel to be wearing nomex. The Fueler and the fire bottle guy are the only two, not even the dead man has to be wearing it.

ALMS doesn't require every one to wear nomex on both sides of the wall either, same with NASCAR.

Which professional series are you referring to then?

On the roll over thing, that is NOT a very good example. The fuel thing is much different. Nice try though..

 

[Knestis]

... Light spacing is only one part of the equation and would be difficult to engineer and enforce.

Matt

I disagree. After talking w/Greg about the a couple of years ago, I tried to be very cognizant of HOW I was judging distances (and change in time, or closing speeds) of cars in my mirrors. That measure is a HUGE factor.

And policing requires, uh... A measuring tape. The important distance is that between the widest-spaced lenses. And I'm not going to have a hernia over dead bulbs. We can only do so much.

K

 

[jjjanos]

No the rules weren't really written for either, the series i am speaking of is GARRA Koni Challenge.

Doesn't matter if they were written for either. The minimum level of safety for a 50-year old pit lane isn't the same as for a super speedway. If a single set of rules is used for both, then either the 50-year old track is under "protected" or the super speedway is over "protected."

Think rollcage rules - club racing cars require them. Autocross cars don't. If the SCCA used a single set of cage rules for club and autocross... one will have too much cage and/or the other will have too little.

Which professional series are you referring to then?

The defunct CART/CCWS series and, I believe the IRL. At least that was the case in CART when worked their races... if you were in the box, you wore nomex. Outside the box, but in the pit lane street clothes were OK.

On the roll over thing, that is NOT a very good example. The fuel thing is much different. Nice try though..

NO, it's exactly the same thing. You think that you can legislate away an "accident" and it cannot be done. Safety rules can limit the probability of a particular accident occuring, but their main function is limiting the damage when the outcome occurs.

Fuel cells reduce the likelihood of a fire. Fire suits reduce the damage that occurs when there is a fire. Outlawing spills doesn't prevent spills, period.

 

[Cobrar05]

This is an example on which reasonable people may differ.

If the issue is "unsafe practices" then punish those who are unsafe, rather than imposing artificial time constraints. The latter takes our collective eye off the ball, and leaves the pit stop observer looking at a stopwatch rather than at whatever goofy thing the crew might be doing. And it's THAT THING that's going to start a fire: Not the time they do or don't take to do it.

People inclined to be sloppy or inattentive will do so whether they are doing it quickly or slowly.

K

Ive been reading this thread with the idea there are two different conversations going on here. Knestis falls into "the 3 hour enduro is a long sprint race, not an enduro" catagory and the enduro series he is thinking of would be 12 to 24 hour races, not the 90 minutes and 3 hour races that the ECR runs in SEDiv.

I would support a 12 race series(one a month if practicable) with 3 races of 12 to 24 hour lenth and the rest of the 3 hour variety run at our favorite tracks. I prefer to race where there is car count to support the race than wait for enough car count to have a race.

On the other hand if you are going to run a regional style enduro you have to be comfortable running their rules. timed pit stops and all.

 

[Knestis]

EDIT - Irrespective of race length...

My point is that if a rule is ostensibly about safety (e.g., the pit stop minimum length) REALLY make it about safety. I frankly think that in many cases, the rules that get wrapped in safety rationale are about handicapping - or removing the advantage from - teams that are better equipped for enduros.

If the rules writers want to make me sit there for minutes after using my fast dry break (11 gallons in less than 6 seconds) to help the guy with Jerry cans and an unleaded restrictor, fine - but they should say that's what the rule is intended to do.

If the issue is "people doing dangerous things while refueling," then they should write the rule to punish dangerous behavior, NOT the hardware with which a car/team is equipped. I could do some very flammable things with my dump cans, and have demonstrated that we can do relatively quick, spill-free stops with red jugs - Conover Motorsport spec red jugs, anyway...

K

 

[jimmyc]

Doesn't matter if they were written for either. The minimum level of safety for a 50-year old pit lane isn't the same as for a super speedway. If a single set of rules is used for both, then either the 50-year old track is under "protected" or the super speedway is over "protected."

I will say it again IT DOES'T MATTER were the race is. YOU CAN SAFELY use the same set of rules.

I don't care if the track is Euro style with NO pit wall, you can still use the same set of rules.

If you are worried about the people on the other side of the wall you are the ONLY person worried about it.

But you go ahead and keep pounding your drum, about nothing.

Didn't CART use Methanol?

 

[dickita15]

If the rules writers want to make me sit there for minutes after using my fast dry break (11 gallons in less than 6 seconds) to help the guy with Jerry cans and an unleaded restrictor, fine - but they should say that's what the rule is intended to do.
K

Yes you are right Kirk, it is partially about handicapping or said another way trying to draw people into trying longer races without having to make the equipment investment that hardcore experienced team like your have developed.

 

[callard]

Hold on there Dick. Just because someone has a dry break set up now, it doesn't mean that he started on day one with one. Many of us started small. After a few events, we began to get better at certain things and invested in technology where we saw an advantage. There has never been a level playing field in enduro racing. Today's rules let you start out with a minimum investment (oxymoron) in the longer races and you also have the capability of improving safety while gaining a refueling advantage. Don't legislate that away. O, next we'll all be forced to run on Sears tires cuz some race tires are more expensive than others and give you a lap time advantage.
Regards,
Chuck

 

[dickita15]

Chuck, never said I was taking sides buddy, but I was trying to flesh out the thinking for the other side of Kirk’s position. I am not sure which is right but as a state’s rights guy I think regions should be able to tailor to what the locals want.

 

[callard]

This past weekend, I attended the Marlboro reunion at the Jefferson 500 being held at Summit Point. The Regional historian had tons of memorabilia on display and lots of video of the old FIA sanctioned 12 hour races at Marlboro in the '60s. There were multiple videos of pit stops. The car would screech to a halt in the tiny pits, and the driver would start climbing out. A crew member would flip open the Monza filler cap, put in a very large mouthed funnel and several crew members would begin pouring from 5 gallon steel jugs at the same time. My eyes bugged out as I saw gallons of gas being spilled all over the cars, into the cockpits and in some cases, all over the drivers. Someone would throw a bucket of water and off they would go. Nary a dry break or overhead fuel rig in sight. We've come a long way baybee!

No real point guys, I just thought you'd appreciate the story.
Regards,
Chuck