Event Tech Inspections
- Thread starter gran racing
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RSTPerformance
New member
Dave-
I like the idea of having items tossed into a hat and drawing for what is checked on your car.
To all-
One issue to discuss... If it is not in the supps can the tech inspector make you "tear down" your engine for inspection? (By "tear down" I mean anything that is a cost to the racer. This could be including taking off the valve cover or oil pan (thier is a cost required to replace gaskets), but not taking out a spark plug wich can simply be screwed back in.
The reason I ask this is that if A racer protests B racer then A racer must agree to pay the cost associated with the work IF B racer is found legal. If A racer is not a racer but a tech inspector who pays when B racer is legal?
The other issue, when you are required to do a tear down in a protest the specific items are identified and sealed before the race at the time that the protest is made. Can you make these requirements after a race is complete?
If it is in the supps then it is an expected expence, similar to paying for damage track property (guardrails) at certain tracks. I think that is how the Runoffs and ARRC justifies it, but I am not sure at other events.
Just some thoughts for discussion...
Raymond
I like the idea of having items tossed into a hat and drawing for what is checked on your car.
To all-
One issue to discuss... If it is not in the supps can the tech inspector make you "tear down" your engine for inspection? (By "tear down" I mean anything that is a cost to the racer. This could be including taking off the valve cover or oil pan (thier is a cost required to replace gaskets), but not taking out a spark plug wich can simply be screwed back in.
The reason I ask this is that if A racer protests B racer then A racer must agree to pay the cost associated with the work IF B racer is found legal. If A racer is not a racer but a tech inspector who pays when B racer is legal?
The other issue, when you are required to do a tear down in a protest the specific items are identified and sealed before the race at the time that the protest is made. Can you make these requirements after a race is complete?
If it is in the supps then it is an expected expence, similar to paying for damage track property (guardrails) at certain tracks. I think that is how the Runoffs and ARRC justifies it, but I am not sure at other events.
Just some thoughts for discussion...
Raymond
x-ring
New member
I thought you white-polo-shirt-and-kahki-slacks steward types knew everything?
So, except for removing a wheel (?) or measuring the choke or intake restrictor, the region may end up on the hook for the cost, if the car is compliant.
Good luck convincing the CS that's a good idea, unless all the items in the hat won't cause the region to put out much/any cash if/when the cars are found compliant.
Not sure what you mean here. Are you asking if a protest can be filed post-race? The answer to that is no. Can a protest be changed after it is filed? Yes, but only to withdraw items from the list of protested items.
If you're asking can the items to be checked in impound be changed post-race, the answer is maybe. You ARE aware that the impound plans are (supposed to be, anyway) approved by the CS before the event starts, aren't you? OTOH, see 5.12.2.C.5. If the CS decides while watching you drive around the track that he wants to inspect your wrist pins, when you roll in we'll be having a look at your wrist pins (at his cost, if you're compliant).
In other words, the scrutineer can't look at anything the CS doesn't pre-approve*, but the CS can decide at any time that he wants the scrutineer to look at something.
*One exception to that: If the scrutineer discovers a non-compliant part during the course of inspecting some other part of a car, he (the scrutineer) is permitted to, and should, refer that to the CS for action.
x-ring
New member
While I’m at it, I may as well share what I know about inspecting cams.
I’ve checked cams three ways; with a caliper, with a degree wheel and dial indicator, and with a cam doctor (well, I’ve watched while Jeremy used the cam doctor).
With a caliper all you can check is lift. I’ve never found a cam out of compliance this way. Adding a degree wheel and indicator allows you to check duration. I found one out of spec cam that way, but don’t check them that way anymore (it takes too long). When you switch over to the cam doctor, you can check all of that, plus the intake / exhaust lobe relationship and, in some cases, the gear to lobe relationship. This is where you find out of spec cams. Generally speaking, no one runs substantially more lift than allowed; it’s too easy to find. There’s power to be had in out of spec duration or timing though, for sure, which isn’t so easy to verify.
Keep in mind though that all the data you need to verify that a cam really is stock may not be in the FSM. That’s why you have to send a ‘known’ stock cam to Topeka along with the cam in question, if you want Jeremy to pass judgment on it (unless it is a Miata cam – he knows all about those). The FSM will generally tell you about the lift and duration, but may not tell you everything you need to know to measure the timing.
FWIW.
I’ve checked cams three ways; with a caliper, with a degree wheel and dial indicator, and with a cam doctor (well, I’ve watched while Jeremy used the cam doctor).
With a caliper all you can check is lift. I’ve never found a cam out of compliance this way. Adding a degree wheel and indicator allows you to check duration. I found one out of spec cam that way, but don’t check them that way anymore (it takes too long). When you switch over to the cam doctor, you can check all of that, plus the intake / exhaust lobe relationship and, in some cases, the gear to lobe relationship. This is where you find out of spec cams. Generally speaking, no one runs substantially more lift than allowed; it’s too easy to find. There’s power to be had in out of spec duration or timing though, for sure, which isn’t so easy to verify.
Keep in mind though that all the data you need to verify that a cam really is stock may not be in the FSM. That’s why you have to send a ‘known’ stock cam to Topeka along with the cam in question, if you want Jeremy to pass judgment on it (unless it is a Miata cam – he knows all about those). The FSM will generally tell you about the lift and duration, but may not tell you everything you need to know to measure the timing.
FWIW.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Right...and in the case of the cam doctor, it must have a, as Ty points out, a"known good example" for comparision. So, using the doctor at an event is a tall order.
"Well, I'll just buy a Borgward type R cam, 'cuz I KNOW that rat bastard in my class has a cheating cam, and I'll bring it with me", won't fly, because that is open to evidence tampering. All parts must be procured by the stewards, as they are disinterested parties.
"Well, I'll just buy a Borgward type R cam, 'cuz I KNOW that rat bastard in my class has a cheating cam, and I'll bring it with me", won't fly, because that is open to evidence tampering. All parts must be procured by the stewards, as they are disinterested parties.
x-ring
New member
Right-O. Which brings up this question: Where do you find a 'known good example' of, say, a 510 cam for comparison purposes? I doubt your local Datsun dealer will have one. You, the techie, are then left to using a caliper, indicator and degree wheel. Hmm, anybody think that will fly with the COA, especially if it's close?
I've never discussed this with Jeremy, but I wonder if he has data for some common cams, other than Miatas?
Again, FWIW.
Too soon to tell, but unless I can bum a ride with someone probably not.
Two blown up engines this year has severly cut in to my racing budget, and I already promised Toni C. that I'd work the runoffs at least one more time.
Anybody know where I can get a good deal on a set of pistons? And bearings? And a clutch? And a timing set? And...
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Jeremy is building up a library of cams. Not sure what he has, but I am pretty sure theres a ITA CRX cam in that data base, and others, I bet....
There ought to be "known" ITA CRX cams in the database, we were "Cam Doctored" 3 times last year!!
Seriously though, its an easy enough process, however there MUST be a "known" cam at the event or a good database. At the NASA event, the Cam Doctor operator didn't know how to work the contraption and created a lot more questions than he needed to... which were cleared up once they brought in a guy who had a lot of experience with it.
I agree with Kevin, there are plenty of areas on the car to check legality that are simple. NASA had a pretty good system in that they would check legality of random things after each session (Practice, Qualifying, Race...didn't matter). They saved the real tear downs until after the Championship race (i.e. Removing Cams/Head). After the second practice on the warm-up day, they checked my intake manifold, ride height. I believe they ran the Whistler on my dad's car after qualifying. It was all quick and relatively well organized (except for the Cam Doctor operator not knowing how to work the thing, as well as not having "known" good cams). At the ARRC, tech checked Gear Ratios rather efficiently... didn't look like it took much to do (competitors just had to provide their Final Drive gear ratio).
Oh yeah, public, open-hood line-ups?? No way
Lets keep it official. Its not fair to the teams that put all the time, money, and effort into developing their vehicles, only to let all competitors have open access to the set-ups/development for free. Not to mention, competitors are not always rules experts, technical experts, and are far too often, incredibly biased There are already existing processes in place to allow complete, 100% access to any part of any single competitors car...
Rabbit07
New member
To comment on the Cam removal. On the Neon SOHC Engine I have to remove the head to remove the cam. A real pain if you ask me. Not to mention that there is some slop in the cam gear to cam by design. I have to degree the cam everytime I take it out. Lets keep the checks to the things that are not intrusive for this event and save the tear downs for the ARRC.
My $.02
My $.02
gran racing
Super Moderator
Joe, I don't understand this one.
Being able to look into an engine bay is a far cry from having access to what you've donefor your engine development program or what your suspension design is. I personally have no problems with anyone looking at my engine due to fears they'll walk away with all of the Kessler Engineering secrets. For some people having an "all hoods open" might make them nervous if they've done something illegal, but we know that 99% of the items can't be seen by mearly having the hood open. It is one small very easy step we can take. I don't care if the tech stewards simply peer into engine bays and day dream - the competitor doesn't necessarily need to know that and it just might deter someone a bit from doing something stupid. Just my opinion of course.
Being able to look into an engine bay is a far cry from having access to what you've donefor your engine development program or what your suspension design is. I personally have no problems with anyone looking at my engine due to fears they'll walk away with all of the Kessler Engineering secrets. For some people having an "all hoods open" might make them nervous if they've done something illegal, but we know that 99% of the items can't be seen by mearly having the hood open. It is one small very easy step we can take. I don't care if the tech stewards simply peer into engine bays and day dream - the competitor doesn't necessarily need to know that and it just might deter someone a bit from doing something stupid. Just my opinion of course.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
We had an open hood impound at a race early one season I think a year or so ago that I was just spectating at, and i chuckled as I walked around...illegal ram air, illegal cold air intakes (Not many Hondas have holes in the header panel cut with a device that leaves slag from the factory, right?), questionable lawnmower sized batts and funky looking engine mounts.......
More recent open hood impounds have been better.
More recent open hood impounds have been better.
I can't have everyone being able to look at our supercharged B18C's under the hood!
Honestly, I am opposed to an Open-Hood policy because it is a questionable benefit. As you've said, 99% of legality concerns can not be found by merely looking under the hood.
My concerns:
- Very low benefit (motorcycle batteries, ram air? - these can be found on the top cars at a regular impound)
- Competitors feel entitled to crawl all over my car (i.e. I don't want to babysit my ride after the race!)
- We have an official rules process for this for a reason (i.e. Protest and Top 3 tear-downs)
I just don't think this helps with the "fun" part of the event. Do you think the guy who finishes 23rd is going to want to go sit by his car for 30 minutes after a race and watch while his fellow competitors try and find something illegal... Sounds like it would create the opposite of friendship with some competitors (this does not include IT.com people - obviously people here are more friendly and want to have more of a family in the IT community).
Doesn't bother me though, I'm hoping that my car will be torn down anyways with a top-3 finish!
Just my opinion... if the masses speak and we need open-hood... fine. Whatever it takes to win I guess