Following the safety car

spawpoet

spawpoet

New member
I hope I don't look too stoopid here, but we had an issue that came up in my drivers school a couple of weeks ago. I kinda think this should be covered in the GCR, and I wanted to canvas everybody here for their opinion.
We had a double yellow come out, and the safety car picked me up, and we circulated for I think two laps. Then without turning their lights off the safety car turned into the pits. My dumb butt assumed they left the lights on in error, and proceeded around the track expecting to get the green at the starters stand. Like baby ducks every other car followed me (even though some knew better). I had no idea the rest of the way around the track why the corners workers were so demonstrably upset, and we were all black flagged. Needless to say, I now realize exactly what I did wrong, and why it was wrong. The thing is, it wasn't covered in the classroom sessions up to that point, and more importantly it's not explicitly stated in the GCR that you have to follow the safety car WHEREVER IT GOES when its lights are on. I realize to a lot of people this may just be common knowledge, but I'm not the only one out there who was so naive. Not only did I and my run group make the mistake, but the following group made the same mistake. Maybe they cover this in every drivers school, but I still think it should also be mentioned in the GCR under the safety car section. I guarantee I wouldn't have made the mistake had it been in there. So my real question is what say you???? If you agree that it should be in the GCR how do we get it added?


BTW, on an aside, I thought that the people in Central Florida Region did a terriffic job with the school. There were a lot of "learning moments", I thought my instructor was excellent, and the people were just top notch to deal with. I'm very thankful to be a member in the SCCA in large part to all the people I have met in the club.
 
I would think they would put the black flags out before the pace car came in. i would have done the same thing.........
 
Me too. No black flag, I wouldn't have come in. To further that, the very next station would have probably been S/F. Did they have double yellows out or a black? If they had nothing, I would have thought it went green!
 
Are you sure that they didn't show you a black from the corner stations before you got to the pit entrance? I'm guessing you were just watching the pace car and failed to notice the black flag.

If the corners were still showing yellow though, then I would have stayed out too.
 
You do not follow the pacecar into the pits without a black flag regardless of the lights on it. If it does pull in you need to maintain the same speed on track until you see a green flag. No flag in turn 1 would equal green! Go go go! As an ITB car you always watch the last flag station before start. No flags and the course is green.

I would bet you had a black flag that you may have missed which is the reason the pace car came in.

Stephen
 
I've seen twice now (in Florida) where the lead car didn't follow the pace car correctly on the pace lap. Needless to say they got to meet with the stewards later.

At Daytona they often send the pace car down pit lane, and then skip the infield on the 2nd pace lap for enduros.
 
Hey Chris,

It was nice to meet you. You did a great job at the school in that old relic. I'm looking forward to racing with you.

As Grafton mentioned, last year we had two consecutive polesitters NOT follow the pace car (with lights on) at Daytona. Is it in the GCR?? Don't know. Did they test you at the school?? Yup.

I was speaking with the pace car driver last weekend at Daytona about this. They did that based on what happened last year to test the students and...teach something that apparently (based on responses in this thread) needs teaching.

All i know is if the lights are on, FOLLOW THE PACE CAR!!

You have re-sparked my interest in this matter. I'm gonna discuss this with a VIP :D later. If its not in the GCR, it needs to be.

By the way, we had a full course yellow, red, black and checkerd flags all in about 3 min at Daytona last weekend. Thats two red flags in two May Daytona enduros in two years.:shrug:
 
Mazmarc63 said:
All i know is if the lights are on, FOLLOW THE PACE CAR!!
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I'll remain open-minded on this, and I'll re-read the GCR later this AM, but I challenge you and the Florida stewards:

Show it to me in the GCR. If it ain't there, you're all wrong-o...

I kinda wish I'd been there*, I'd have challenged the stewards to show it to me in the GCR...

GA

*Reminds me of an old joke...
 
Mazmarc63 said:
I was speaking with the pace car driver last weekend at Daytona about this. They did that based on what happened last year to test the students and...teach something that apparently (based on responses in this thread) needs teaching.

All i know is if the lights are on, FOLLOW THE PACE CAR!!
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I am glad I was not there I would have got it “wrong”

There is nothing in the GCR that says that. If it is what you want to be the local custom you better start putting it in the supps.
 
Marc,
Thank you, and it was great to meet you as well. Again our whole group agreed that CFR did a great job with the school. I hope everybody was OK at the enduro last weekend.

As for what happened on track at the school, there was no black flag out when the pace car went down pit lane. I was actually counting/rechecking all the flag stations since we were under a double yellow, and was especially wary of watching the black flag station which was the last station before pit-in. When they first told me I goofed and should have followed the pace car down pit lane, I couldn't figure out why. The explanation is simple enough though. If there is a major incident on track, and the pace car has to drive off track to get around it (like via access roads or pit lane) they kind of need us to follow it. Most of the time they will just get a black flag out, and bring everybody in, but there are times when this may not happen in time. I did see an IMSA race in the early 90's where the field was taken off course to drive around an on track issue, so it's not unprecedented.
 
Greg Amy said:
I'll remain open-minded on this, and I'll re-read the GCR later this AM, but I challenge you and the Florida stewards:

Show it to me in the GCR. If it ain't there, you're all wrong-o...

I kinda wish I'd been there*, I'd have challenged the stewards to show it to me in the GCR...

GA

*Reminds me of an old joke...
Click to expand...


It's NOT in the GCR. I did my homework before the school, and when this happened I was dumbfounded cause I was sure I had never heard it before. That said I think it NEEDS to be in the GCR. That's why I brought the issue up here.
 
Chris/Marc et al, I just looked, and as Dick noted, it's not in the GCR. Therefore, assuming there was nothing in the supps about it, and the track flag conditions were truly double-yellow and not BFA, then the students were correct and the Stewards were wrong.

It's as simple as that.

Flags tell the driver about track condition and what to do about it. The pace car gathers and slows the pace of the cars. It's one thing to follow the pace car around a visible incident, it's a whole 'nother kettle of fish to follow the pace car off the track. Had the stewards wanted the cars off the track they could have gone Black Flag All or thrown the checker, either of which tells the drivers that the session is over and to proceed to the pits. There are no other directives that I can immediately find that tells the drivers that they must proceed to the pits, especially if the flag conditions remained double yellow all.

You guys can follow the pace car into the pits all you want, and the stewards can continue with a false sense of control over the field, but if this happens to me I'm staying on the track, I'll win the race, and we can discuss this via a $25 letter to the Topeka Court of Appeals...

The GCR applies to everyone involved, including the organizers and stewards. There's nothing in there that says we can make up rules as we go along...

GA
 
The GCR is silent on following the safety car down pit lane.

In situations where the normal procedure (e.g. on pace laps) is to go down pit lane or otherwise deviate from the normal racing course, this should be called out in the supps, and underlined at the drivers meeting.

Keep in mind that the usual reason for the safety car's leaving its lights on when entering pit lane is that the driver forgot to turn them off.

Keep in mind also that a black flag means "Come into the pits and stop." I am not sure that we want to overload that meaning with another possible meaning. The great value of each flag is that it has a single, clear, unambiguous meaning.

This is an interesting problem, and I am not sure that there is a solution that fits all cases. You might contact the CRB (www.crbscca.com), and propose something.
 
Greg/Dick, thanks for checking. Great topic. I'm gonna talk to Mr. Langlotz about this. I may suggest he post a response here. I am very interested in this as I was *involved* in the two episodes last year.

Chris, everyone was okay in the incedent that ended the enduro.

So check this out. Mark Nasrallah, in an ITS 944, got lucky and pitted just before the first full course caution and gained a lap on the field. Then, as the race was on its final laps, he was very slow ( I actually passed him twice). His LR wheel bearing failed and the wheel seperated itself from the rest of the car just past T&S, DL. Apparently it caused a small fire, hence the red flag. Scoring went back to the previous lap which gave him the win in ITS. We were second.:D
 
Even after reading this, if I see it in the future I'm staying out.

As Grafton mentioned, last year we had two consecutive polesitters NOT follow the pace car (with lights on) at Daytona. Is it in the GCR?? Don't know. Did they test you at the school?? Yup.[/QUOTE]

Then this needs to be stopped. If it's not in the GCR or supps, then guess what.

That said I think it NEEDS to be in the GCR.
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No it doesn't. We already have proceedures for these types of situations defined and there's no reason to add further wording when it's already in there. Black flag all, not too difficult.
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It is true that the GCR is silent on this issue. I have been in this situation both as a pace car driver and as a driver. In each case, what was done is that the pace car driver (and the person riding shotgun) gestured to the cars behind to go into pit lane. At the same time, a corner worker stood track side and pointed the cars into pit lane. (There are some tracks where it may be difficult for a corner worker or pit marshal to do this.) Putting something in the Supps does not seem to solve the problem because if the safety car driver forgets to turn off the lights, the result is less than optimal.

Dave
 
Dave Gomberg said:
...what was done is that the pace car driver (and the person riding shotgun) gestured to the cars behind to go into pit lane. At the same time, a corner worker stood track side and pointed the cars into pit lane.
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If there's time to coordinate this, then there's time to toss a BFA...putting workers on the track that way is pointless and dangerous.

GA
 
Well, there is this, from 6.6.2:

The safety car will maintain the established pace, extinguish the lights, and exit the course prior to a restart. Drivers must maintain the safety car’s pace and not improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag has been displayed to restart the race.

...but I think it's a bit too much to extrapolate from this that the cars are required to follow the pace car down pit lane if the lights don't go out. If I were the lead car I'm pretty sure I would not have followed him down pit lane, but like most of us if I weren't the leader I would probably have just done what everyone else did. :D
 
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